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New Zealand doom and gloom thread

hendrix

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Why would anyone like Fleming or Vettori do it.

They can and have made millions with cushy ipl or commentary jobs.

Why would they take on a difficult full time role that would be widely criticised?
 
Starfighter

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bahnz said:
Tbf, Lyon seems to rate him pretty highly as a bowling coach.
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I mentioned his conspicuous lack of success in the BBL and IPL a couple of years ao despite generally having strong teams on paper. Of course counter balancing that there's his being assistant coach during yet another successful Australia World Cup campaign.

IIRC there was a Cricinfo article several years ago where he was specifically brought up as an example of someone who keeps getting gigs despite his record.
 
thundaboult

thundaboult

International Debutant
hendrix said:
Why would anyone like Fleming or Vettori do it.

They can and have made millions with cushy ipl or commentary jobs.

Why would they take on a difficult full time role that would be widely criticised?
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from what i have seen, the most serious amount of criticism nzc gets is 1 stuff or herald article every 12-18 months or so

the non-existent level of criticism is scary actually....is there any real pressure on the likes of santner, southee, blundell to get better? they just keep carrying along getting picked, the same was happening for the longest time with nicholls and few others i'm sure

public just doesn't care about the game enough to criticize it...thats why these dry paint watching enthusiasts at nzc keep extending steads contract

its the perfect job for promoting mediocrity, doing the bare minimum and staying hidden
 
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Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Starfighter said:
Speaking of Andre Adams, can anyone here shed light on why he only played one test?
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Strong personality, John Bracewell also has a strong personality, suspicion he didn't have enough going as a bowler to crack test cricket.

In hindsight, he should have been given an opportunity. O'Brien was another viewed with skepticism and he was solid.
 
Chubb

Chubb

International Regular
There were definitely "interpersonal dynamics" at play with Adams but IIRC he didn't really put up the kind of numbers that make you ask why he isn't playing tests until he was in county cricket, and by then he was mid-30s and they wanted younger options. Similar thing happened with Jeetan Patel.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Chubb said:
There were definitely "interpersonal dynamics" at play with Adams but IIRC he didn't really put up the kind of numbers that make you ask why he isn't playing tests until he was in county cricket, and by then he was mid-30s and they wanted younger options. Similar thing happened with Jeetan Patel.
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Nah, think Jeets was a different situation. He spent a long time as the designated 2nd spinner behind Vettori, which meant he didn't get many opportunities. When Vettori was finally forced into retirement by injury, the timing coincided with Jeets' mum dying which meant he wasn't really in the right headspace for internationals in the 2012/13 season. Bruce Martin got his shot and did OK, and by the time that ran its course, Hesson was looking into longer-term options. Jeets saw his opportunity with Warwickshire and took it, after which the financial security offered by his county contract took precedence over international duties. A shame, as NZ badly needed Jeets' control and experience of English conditions during the 2015 England tour.
 
hendrix

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Bahnz said:
Nah, think Jeets was a different situation. He spent a long time as the designated 2nd spinner behind Vettori, which meant he didn't get many opportunities. When Vettori was finally forced into retirement by injury, the timing coincided with Jeets' mum dying which meant he wasn't really in the right headspace for internationals in the 2012/13 season. Bruce Martin got his shot and did OK, and by the time that ran its course, Hesson was looking into longer-term options. Jeets saw his opportunity with Warwickshire and took it, after which the financial security offered by his county contract took precedence over international duties. A shame, as NZ badly needed Jeets' control and experience of English conditions during the 2015 England tour.
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Yeah ok. There were circumstances.

But Hesson, supposedly a the man manager type of coach, had no interest in working with Jeetan. And that to me from the outside looks like it had a lot to do with McCullum.

Which is a shame.
 
jcas0167

jcas0167

International Debutant
Starfighter said:
Speaking of Andre Adams, can anyone here shed light on why he only played one test?
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He apparently suffered a back injury on the tour to the Windies in 2002. That was the first tour after he had made his successful test debut in the third test against England at the end of the home summer. Shane Bond returned from injury and the other seamer position went to Ian Butler while Scott Styis came in as an all-rounder.

The following summer Jacob Oram came in as a batting all-rounder and they beat India 2-0 on fairly green wickets. Oram and Styris were very effective with the ball along with Astle.

In terms of pace options they went with Bond, Tuffey, Butler and Chris Martin. Adams also had a relatively poor 2002/03 WC IIRC and didn't really feature again when John Bracewell took over later in 2003. I have Richard Hadlee's book from his time as selector will see if that can shed any further light on it.
 
Moss

Moss

International Captain
I dont think I’ve ever been so disappointed with New Zealand cricket. There have been some low phases before - the centenary season in 1995 was bleak, in 2008-11 we put out some pretty bad sides, but I never felt less than completely invested. Here, the current team is a capable side playing very badly. We’ve been served some real horse manure this year, whether its misreading spin-friendly conditions at home (Dane Peidt and South Africa’s B team gave NZ a real scare, then the Lyon ambush at the Basin), surrendering good positions in winnable tests vs Aus and SL, and the WT20 first round exit after putting a lot of eggs in the T20 basket. Guys like Ravindra and O’Rourke have shown that newer players can make the step-up, the T20 series against Pakistan showed that the cupboard isn’t that bare.

I get that there are a number of good reasons for these results, but it does feel as if everyone in the setup was completely satisfied after that WTC win in 2021 and as long as the home results and WC semifinal appearances came along all was well. Now we’re at a stage where there’s a rare window before the tour to India, and no effort made to have warm ups etc (this after it clear prep was an issue for the T20 WC.). The same mistakes are being made with regard to planning and on the field.

But more to the point, watching the side now feels like a chore, everything from the selection to the lack of preparation to the eventual outcomes is getting too predictable.
 
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Moss

Moss

International Captain
ashley bach said:
Yeah it's all doom and gloom at the moment that's for sure. 600/5 V 88 alone does a lot of talking.
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For sure. Everone has terrible days in the office, but it was the inevitability of it more than anything. The fielding’s been bad for some time now, and the decision to go in with the same XI makes you wonder if anyone in the management believes anything needs fixing.
 
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