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My top 20 allrounders of all-time

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I said England were on the verge of being number two
no he wasnt...the acheivement of what Pakistan did in WI was great...but Imran didnt have the rep as a great captain
Whatever, I am not going to argue any furthur on this and glorify your ridiculously insane comparison. This is the worst comparison I have heard in my life.

Next time when you ridicule Richard for his comparisons, please remember this thread.
 
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Swervy

International Captain
Whatever, I am not going to argue any furthur on this and glorify your ridiculously insane comparison. This is the worst comparison I have heard in my life.

Next time when you ridicule Richard for his comparisons, please remember this thread.
but you havent said why it is an insane comparison!!!

I think it is safe to say that one captain had a hell of a lot of talent playing under him, the other one didnt. And yet the one with less talent under him had a better record.

Seems to me the it is perfectly reasonable to question the Imran worship regarding the captaincy.

Just to reiterate, it was not widely seen in the 80s that Imran was a particularly brilliant captain. In fact I seem to remember in 1982 vs England his captaincy was crictised (I might be wrong, I will do a bit of research on that). He certainly wasnt a major brain box when it came to tactics. Fine, he was a bringer together of men, but that isnt everything.

I think maybe some people romanticise the idea of Imran Khan a tad
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Chris Cairns = Reason I love cricket


Does anyone remember that match a couple of years ago where he hit the stump, it bounced up and then settled back in?

Classy. Cairns was not impressed mind you.
 

Fiery

Banned
Chris Cairns = Reason I love cricket


Does anyone remember that match a couple of years ago where he hit the stump, it bounced up and then settled back in?

Classy. Cairns was not impressed mind you.
Agreed..Chris Cairns was a total gun....shame his career was hindered by injury but there was no one who I looked forward to coming into bat more for the pure fact that you knew he was bound to hit at least 1 six and it would be huge. He could hit the ball further than anyone. Bowled alright too
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Agreed..Chris Cairns was a total gun....shame his career was hindered by injury but there was no one who I looked forward to coming into bat more for the pure fact that you knew he was bound to hit at least 1 six and it would be huge. He could hit the ball further than anyone. Bowled alright too
I agree but I rate his bowling a bit higher than that myself, at times he was brilliant with the ball, as explosive as he was with the bat.

At other times, not so much. But even Bradman got a duck neh?
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
but you havent said why it is an insane comparison!!!
Hussain couldn't handle one World Class Talent or , Imran not only handled much exlosive Miandad and Qadir but also groomed Akram, Younis, Aaquib, Inzi etc. (Imran 1, Nasser 0)

Hussain had to resort to negative tactics to stop Tendulkar, Imran requested Gavaskar to postpone his retirement to play one last time. (Imran 2, Nasser 0)

Hussain's performed poorly as captain, Imran is probably the only cricketer whose (batting)avg. doubles as a captain. (Imran 3, Nasser 0)

Naseer lost both the series he played against the best side in the world, Imran didn't lose a single series to the best side in the world despite playing 3 series.(Imran 4, Nasser 0)

Nasser lost a series in India, Imran won a series in India.(Imran 5, Nasser 0)

Nasser drew home series against India, Imran won 3-0. (Imran 6, Nasser 0)

Pakistan won home series against Australia, England lost. (Imran 7, Nasser 0)

Nasser won in Pak,Imran won in England (Imran 8, Nasser 1)

Nasser won in SL, Imran drew in Lanka (Imran 8, Nasser 2)

Nasser never got close to WC, Imran won it (Imran 9, Nasser 2)

Vs. Australia - Imran 3-2-3(Win-Loss-Draw), Nasser 2-6-0 (Imran 10, Nasser 2)
Vs. India - Imran 4-0-11, Nasser 1-2-4 (Imran 11, Nasser 2)
Vs. WI - Imran 3-3-3, Nasser 2-1-1 (Imran 11, Nasser 3)
Vs. NZ - Imran 0-0-2, Nasser 2-1-3 (Imran 12, Nasser 3)
Eng-Pak - Imran 2-2-4, Nasser 2-0-2 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)
Vs. SL - Imran 2-1-3, Nasser 4-1-1 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)

I am not even counting Imran's team success in ODIs where they won countless tournaments and made WC SF each time before eventually winning it in 1992, Nasser's ODI performance is very mediocre at best.

That is despite the support system Nasser came through, in Imran's case he was the system and its support as well.

Your only argument in your favor has been that he was criticized for his captaincy in 1982, hell that was his first series and he had lost it.

You throw a sweeping statement that Imran had so much talent and what not, Well He had only one truly world class batsman in Javed Miandad, and had Akram only since 1985 even he was Raw (although more explosive) and not the same cunning and smart fast Akram we saw through the 90s. For the last part of his career when he had guys like Younis etc, he himself wasn't bowling.

I will agree that Imran had better talent than Nasser but not by as much as you claim and even Nasser had a pretty good talent in the later parts of his captaincy when he won most of his tests.

Besides if you are going to argue that Imran had better talent then you should also know that Imran faced better opposition as well and hence it neutralizes the advantage he had in the talent.

Also, Please dont accuse people of worshipping Imran or Romanticizing the idea of Imran khan and all that. I dont worship Imran or romanticise the idea of Imran etc. I say it because IMO he was one the best captain ever and this opinion was based on watching him perform and reading about him and his captaincy through out the 80s.

So far you have not made any arguments except taking cheapshots and pointing incorrect fact such as Nasser has better record than Imran..He won 17 also lost 15, Imran won 14 lost only 5. How it is a better record, when W/L ratio of Imran is better ? His wins are less because that was a different era cricket wasn't as attacking as it is today, not to forget 3 of Hussain's wins are against Zimbabwe. And If winning records are the only criteria then Ricky Pontig has to be the best captain ever, which will be a joke.

Enough Said !!
 
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Swervy

International Captain
Hussain couldn't handle one World Class Talent or , Imran not only handled much exlosive Miandad and Qadir but also groomed Akram, Younis, Aaquib, Inzi etc. (Imran 1, Nasser 0)

Hussain had to resort to negative tactics to stop Tendulkar, Imran requested Gavaskar to postpone his retirement to play one last time. (Imran 2, Nasser 0)

Hussain's performed poorly as captain, Imran is probably the only cricketer whose (batting)avg. doubles as a captain. (Imran 3, Nasser 0)

Naseer lost both the series he played against the best side in the world, Imran didn't lose a single series to the best side in the world despite playing 3 series.(Imran 4, Nasser 0)

Nasser lost a series in India, Imran won a series in India.(Imran 5, Nasser 0)

Nasser drew home series against India, Imran won 3-0. (Imran 6, Nasser 0)

Pakistan won home series against Australia, England lost. (Imran 7, Nasser 0)

Nasser won in Pak,Imran won in England (Imran 8, Nasser 1)

Nasser won in SL, Imran drew in Lanka (Imran 8, Nasser 2)

Nasser never got close to WC, Imran won it (Imran 9, Nasser 2)

Vs. Australia - Imran 3-2-3(Win-Loss-Draw), Nasser 2-6-0 (Imran 10, Nasser 2)
Vs. India - Imran 4-0-11, Nasser 1-2-4 (Imran 11, Nasser 2)
Vs. WI - Imran 3-3-3, Nasser 2-1-1 (Imran 11, Nasser 3)
Vs. NZ - Imran 0-0-2, Nasser 2-1-3 (Imran 12, Nasser 3)
Eng-Pak - Imran 2-2-4, Nasser 2-0-2 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)
Vs. SL - Imran 2-1-3, Nasser 4-1-1 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)

I am not even counting Imran's team success in ODIs where they won countless tournaments and made WC SF each time before eventually winning it in 1992, Nasser's ODI performance is very mediocre at best.

That is despite the support system Nasser came through, in Imran's case he was the system and its support as well.

Your only argument in your favor has been that he was criticized for his captaincy in 1982, hell that was his first series and he had lost it.

You throw a sweeping statement that Imran had so much talent and what not, Well He had only one truly world class batsman in Javed Miandad, and had Akram only since 1985 even he was Raw (although more explosive) and not the same cunning and smart fast Akram we saw through the 90s. For the last part of his career when he had guys like Younis etc, he himself wasn't bowling.

I will agree that Imran had better talent than Nasser but not by as much as you claim and even Nasser had a pretty good talent in the later parts of his captaincy when he won most of his tests.

Besides if you are going to argue that Imran had better talent then you should also know that Imran faced better opposition as well and hence it neutralizes the advantage he had in the talent.

Also, Please dont accuse people of worshipping Imran or Romanticizing the idea of Imran khan and all that. I dont worship Imran or romanticise the idea of Imran etc. I say it because IMO he was one the best captain ever and this opinion was based on watching him perform and reading about him and his captaincy through out the 80s.

So far you have not made any arguments except taking cheapshots and pointing incorrect fact such as Nasser has better record than Imran..He won 17 also lost 15, Imran won 14 lost only 5. How it is a better record, when W/L ratio of Imran is better ? His wins are less because that was a different era cricket wasn't as attacking as it is today, not to forget 3 of Hussain's wins are against Zimbabwe. And If winning records are the only criteria then Ricky Pontig has to be the best captain ever, which will be a joke.

Enough Said !!
its a rather simplistic way of putting it.

Lets put it down to a difference of opinion
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I said England were on the verge of being number two
That's such a vague statement. Eng were nowhere close to being the second best when Nasser gave up the captaincy. They were no. 5 for most part of his captaincy and no. 4 when he passed the baton to Vaughan. The difference between 4 and 5 was only 1 point whereas the difference between 3-4 was 5, the difference between 2 and 4 was 17. So it is too much of assumption on your part to claim that they were closer no. 2

Icc Rating in 2003. - http://www.icc-cricket.com/icc/test/archive/2003.html
 

Swervy

International Captain
That's such a vague statement. Eng were nowhere close to being the second best when Nasser gave up the captaincy. They were no. 5 for most part of his captaincy and no. 4 when he passed the baton to Vaughan. The difference between 4 and 5 was only 1 point whereas the difference between 3-4 was 5, the difference between 2 and 4 was 17. So it is too much of assumption on your part to claim that they were closer no. 2

Icc Rating in 2003. - http://www.icc-cricket.com/icc/test/archive/2003.html
Of course it was a vague comment..how could I possibly even think about winning an arguement without vague comments :D
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Of course it was a vague comment..how could I possibly even think about winning an arguement without vague comments :D
Its not about winning or losing the arguments, I have been here(@ CW) for so long that I dont care about winning/losing an argument and not insistent on always having the last word,at least not anymore. But what annoys me is that people make incorrect statements to prove their point or make vague statements such as England was close to being the second best.

For gods sake there are only 10 countries that play cricket. There is no such thing as close to no. 2 team. If you are no. 4 (no. 5 for the most part) then you are no where close to being the second best, something you were trying to suggest.

Either ways, I have been long here to know your views and have a fair idea of your way of forming opinion about players, so yeah let's agree to disagree on this.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Its not about winning or losing the arguments, I have been here(@ CW) for so long that I dont care about winning/losing an argument and not insistent on always having the last word,at least not anymore. But what annoys me is that people make incorrect statements to prove their point or make vague statements such as England was close to being the second best.

For gods sake there are only 10 countries that play cricket. There is no such thing as close to no. 2 team. If you are no. 4 (no. 5 for the most part) then you are no where close to being the second best, something you were trying to suggest.

Either ways, I have been long here to know your views and have a fair idea of your way of forming opinion about players, so yeah let's agree to disagree on this.
OK, I was only trying to put a bit of a light hearted banter into it!!!

Fair enough, I think I got the wrong year when Hussain gave up the captaincy...but there is no doubt under Hussain, England showed the greatest improvement of any team in the world, and he has to take credit for that.

Ok, I will admit that maybe I am a bit cynical about Imrans captaincy, and maybe I probably underestimate his worth as a skipper , but I do think that you probablyunder play Hussains influence on an England team that went from being a laughing stock to a seriously tough outfit in the space of a few years with again, not an abundence of talent
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I do think that you probablyunder play Hussains influence on an England team that went from being a laughing stock to a seriously tough outfit in the space of a few years with again, not an abundence of talent
Actually that is quite incorrect, If you look at the forum archives you will find out that On this very forum I have defended Hussain's captaincy and argued that he is a legend of English cricket and at that time almost everyone disagreed with me.

But only in this context (Imran Vs. Hussain) IMO Hussain does not stand anywhere close to Imran.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Actually that is quite incorrect, If you look at the forum archives you will find out that On this very forum I have defended Hussain's captaincy and argued that he is a legend of English cricket and at that time almost everyone disagreed with me.

But only in this context (Imran Vs. Hussain) IMO Hussain does not stand anywhere close to Imran.
fair do's
 

pup11

International Coach
Hussain couldn't handle one World Class Talent or , Imran not only handled much exlosive Miandad and Qadir but also groomed Akram, Younis, Aaquib, Inzi etc. (Imran 1, Nasser 0)

Hussain had to resort to negative tactics to stop Tendulkar, Imran requested Gavaskar to postpone his retirement to play one last time. (Imran 2, Nasser 0)

Hussain's performed poorly as captain, Imran is probably the only cricketer whose (batting)avg. doubles as a captain. (Imran 3, Nasser 0)

Naseer lost both the series he played against the best side in the world, Imran didn't lose a single series to the best side in the world despite playing 3 series.(Imran 4, Nasser 0)

Nasser lost a series in India, Imran won a series in India.(Imran 5, Nasser 0)

Nasser drew home series against India, Imran won 3-0. (Imran 6, Nasser 0)

Pakistan won home series against Australia, England lost. (Imran 7, Nasser 0)

Nasser won in Pak,Imran won in England (Imran 8, Nasser 1)

Nasser won in SL, Imran drew in Lanka (Imran 8, Nasser 2)

Nasser never got close to WC, Imran won it (Imran 9, Nasser 2)

Vs. Australia - Imran 3-2-3(Win-Loss-Draw), Nasser 2-6-0 (Imran 10, Nasser 2)
Vs. India - Imran 4-0-11, Nasser 1-2-4 (Imran 11, Nasser 2)
Vs. WI - Imran 3-3-3, Nasser 2-1-1 (Imran 11, Nasser 3)
Vs. NZ - Imran 0-0-2, Nasser 2-1-3 (Imran 12, Nasser 3)
Eng-Pak - Imran 2-2-4, Nasser 2-0-2 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)
Vs. SL - Imran 2-1-3, Nasser 4-1-1 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)

I am not even counting Imran's team success in ODIs where they won countless tournaments and made WC SF each time before eventually winning it in 1992, Nasser's ODI performance is very mediocre at best.

That is despite the support system Nasser came through, in Imran's case he was the system and its support as well.

Your only argument in your favor has been that he was criticized for his captaincy in 1982, hell that was his first series and he had lost it.

You throw a sweeping statement that Imran had so much talent and what not, Well He had only one truly world class batsman in Javed Miandad, and had Akram only since 1985 even he was Raw (although more explosive) and not the same cunning and smart fast Akram we saw through the 90s. For the last part of his career when he had guys like Younis etc, he himself wasn't bowling.

I will agree that Imran had better talent than Nasser but not by as much as you claim and even Nasser had a pretty good talent in the later parts of his captaincy when he won most of his tests.

Besides if you are going to argue that Imran had better talent then you should also know that Imran faced better opposition as well and hence it neutralizes the advantage he had in the talent.

Also, Please dont accuse people of worshipping Imran or Romanticizing the idea of Imran khan and all that. I dont worship Imran or romanticise the idea of Imran etc. I say it because IMO he was one the best captain ever and this opinion was based on watching him perform and reading about him and his captaincy through out the 80s.

So far you have not made any arguments except taking cheapshots and pointing incorrect fact such as Nasser has better record than Imran..He won 17 also lost 15, Imran won 14 lost only 5. How it is a better record, when W/L ratio of Imran is better ? His wins are less because that was a different era cricket wasn't as attacking as it is today, not to forget 3 of Hussain's wins are against Zimbabwe. And If winning records are the only criteria then Ricky Pontig has to be the best captain ever, which will be a joke.
Enough Said !!
And what makes you say that, i agree Ricky is not a natural leader like an Imran Khan or Steve Waugh but his captaincy record is seriously good,enough has been said about the fact even a baboon can lead the Australian side but the fact of the matter remains the same that an Australian side was looking like a bunch of no-hopers in C-H series without Ricky but then Ricky led from the front in the WC and led Aussies to a convincing WC title defence.IMO captain should be man who should set an example for his team and lead by example and in that criteria i would certainly rate Ricky as one of the best captains of all time.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Hussain couldn't handle one World Class Talent or , Imran not only handled much exlosive Miandad and Qadir but also groomed Akram, Younis, Aaquib, Inzi etc. (Imran 1, Nasser 0)

Hussain had to resort to negative tactics to stop Tendulkar, Imran requested Gavaskar to postpone his retirement to play one last time. (Imran 2, Nasser 0)

Hussain's performed poorly as captain, Imran is probably the only cricketer whose (batting)avg. doubles as a captain. (Imran 3, Nasser 0)

Naseer lost both the series he played against the best side in the world, Imran didn't lose a single series to the best side in the world despite playing 3 series.(Imran 4, Nasser 0)

Nasser lost a series in India, Imran won a series in India.(Imran 5, Nasser 0)

Nasser drew home series against India, Imran won 3-0. (Imran 6, Nasser 0)

Pakistan won home series against Australia, England lost. (Imran 7, Nasser 0)

Nasser won in Pak,Imran won in England (Imran 8, Nasser 1)

Nasser won in SL, Imran drew in Lanka (Imran 8, Nasser 2)

Nasser never got close to WC, Imran won it (Imran 9, Nasser 2)

Vs. Australia - Imran 3-2-3(Win-Loss-Draw), Nasser 2-6-0 (Imran 10, Nasser 2)
Vs. India - Imran 4-0-11, Nasser 1-2-4 (Imran 11, Nasser 2)
Vs. WI - Imran 3-3-3, Nasser 2-1-1 (Imran 11, Nasser 3)
Vs. NZ - Imran 0-0-2, Nasser 2-1-3 (Imran 12, Nasser 3)
Eng-Pak - Imran 2-2-4, Nasser 2-0-2 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)
Vs. SL - Imran 2-1-3, Nasser 4-1-1 (Imran 12, Nasser 4)

I am not even counting Imran's team success in ODIs where they won countless tournaments and made WC SF each time before eventually winning it in 1992, Nasser's ODI performance is very mediocre at best.

That is despite the support system Nasser came through, in Imran's case he was the system and its support as well.

Your only argument in your favor has been that he was criticized for his captaincy in 1982, hell that was his first series and he had lost it.

You throw a sweeping statement that Imran had so much talent and what not, Well He had only one truly world class batsman in Javed Miandad, and had Akram only since 1985 even he was Raw (although more explosive) and not the same cunning and smart fast Akram we saw through the 90s. For the last part of his career when he had guys like Younis etc, he himself wasn't bowling.

I will agree that Imran had better talent than Nasser but not by as much as you claim and even Nasser had a pretty good talent in the later parts of his captaincy when he won most of his tests.

Besides if you are going to argue that Imran had better talent then you should also know that Imran faced better opposition as well and hence it neutralizes the advantage he had in the talent.

Also, Please dont accuse people of worshipping Imran or Romanticizing the idea of Imran khan and all that. I dont worship Imran or romanticise the idea of Imran etc. I say it because IMO he was one the best captain ever and this opinion was based on watching him perform and reading about him and his captaincy through out the 80s.

So far you have not made any arguments except taking cheapshots and pointing incorrect fact such as Nasser has better record than Imran..He won 17 also lost 15, Imran won 14 lost only 5. How it is a better record, when W/L ratio of Imran is better ? His wins are less because that was a different era cricket wasn't as attacking as it is today, not to forget 3 of Hussain's wins are against Zimbabwe. And If winning records are the only criteria then Ricky Pontig has to be the best captain ever, which will be a joke.

Enough Said !!
how do I nominate this for an Afridi?
 

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