Murali/Sanga vs Ambrose/Lara

[Johan]

Yeah I’m not good at doing relative heights so couldn’t tell ya. Maybe we should ask AI.

I can get a pixel calc done.

 

[kyear2]

The disrespect to Andy Flower in this sub is too much.

Are we still arguing if Andy Flower was a world class keeper?

 

[kyear2]

Flower is elite, but Sanga and Gilly are clearly above him in this respect.

i

Flower isn't close to being elite.

I can buy the Sanga argument, but if we're including Sanga, then there's also A.B. and Walcott. From what I've read Walcott was a better keeper than both and averaged the same as Sanga with the bat while keeping.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed.

I think the difference between Smith/Lara and Kallis/Sangakkara/Ponting is not as big as some people think it is.

Wording I should have used is at least a tier ahead, which I stand by.

 

[kyear2]

As a batsman : Sanga > Flower
As a WK : Gilly > Flower
As a WK batsman : Flower > Gilly > Sanga

Please explain to me how?

Gilly was a world class keeper, guys like Evans and Knott ATG ones, Sanga above test standard at worst.

At the very best, Flower was decent or just below test standard, or average.

How does that level of keeping take one above Gilly and Sanga.

Your primary job is to wicketkeep.

 

[kyear2]

I’ve always regarded Gilly and Sanga as roughly equal keepers personally

think Gilly is a little more proven to great pacers but not much inbetween

Basically agree. Guys were actually good keepers, great even. A prerequisite to be rated as a great keeper batsman.

 

[kyear2]

I would rate Andy Flower higher.

- Kept for longer hours
- Batted at a higher position
- Faced more pressure
- Didn’t have the batting support
- Had a much higher peak

None of this has anything to do with what's most important.

His actual ability to keep wicket.

 

[Migara]

None of this has anything to do with what's most important.

His actual ability to keep wicket.

I do think Flower was a tier below Sangakkara and Gilchrist with the gloves. Walcott was way before my time, so haven't seen him keep.

 

[Migara]

I mean, you can hardly prove yourself to great pacers if there aren’t any on your team. (no disrespect to Chaminda) I’m sure keeping to Malinga in shorter formats was no easy feat either. How’d he go there?

The only things that Gilchrist kept that was quicker than Malinga were Lee and Tait.
Then it is more challenging to keep slingers and Fernando's than McGraths or Lees.

 

[subshakerz]

Sanga wasn't that good with the gloves.

 

[kyear2]

You implied it though, by choosing Flower over Gilchrist. I mean the position itself “wicketkeeper batsman” indicates wicketkeeping is the more important factor. Whereas by picking Flower you imply the opposite.

Exactly. And at some point there has to be a minimum standard for the level of wicketkeeping required for these discussions, and nothing I've read or seen indicates Flower meets that standard.

 

[kyear2]

Sanga wasn't that good with the gloves.

He was more than useful to Murali, not Prasanna, but pretty good.

 

[kyear2]

I do think Flower was a tier below Sangakkara and Gilchrist with the gloves. Walcott was way before my time, so haven't seen him keep.

A tier?

1. Nah.

2. And it's not how far below, but if he's at least met a minimum standard. I don't think he did.

3. You can read about Walcott, and @JBMAC has spoken often on his quality as a keeper. Better than anyone going around today and the likes of ABdv etc.

 

[Migara]

He was more than useful to Murali, not Prasanna, but pretty good.

Prasanna J was a top tier keeper. Only one probably better than in recent times was Healy. Sanga manage to keep him out for few years from the team. Unless his glove work was pretty good, that would have not happened.

 

[kyear2]

Prasanna J was a top tier keeper. Only one probably better than in recent times was Healy. Sanga manage to keep him out for few years from the team. Unless his glove work was pretty good, that would have not happened.

I was saying that Flower was more than a tier below Sangakkara, that's all.

 

[govinda indian fan]

Prasanna J was a top tier keeper. Only one probably better than in recent times was Healy. Sanga manage to keep him out for few years from the team. Unless his glove work was pretty good, that would have not happened.

Saha and ben foakes quite up there

 

[Migara]

Saha and ben foakes quite up there

PJ is a different animal. Once in a generation keeper.

 

[DrWolverine]

PJ is a different animal. Once in a generation keeper.

One of the best pure keepers

 

[Migara]

One of the best pure keepers

Oh he was quite OK with the bat. Averaged 30.

 

[kyear2]

Oh he was quite OK with the bat. Averaged 30.

Which for that level of wicket keeping brilliance is imo more than good enough.

Taking him over Flower every day of the week.