Mohammed Amir cleared to return with immediate effect

[Bahnz]

I think Amir has been treated fairly. A one-off incident by a guy surrounded by corrupt individuals in his first year of professional sport shouldn't be punished with the equivalent of a death sentence.

 

[Flem274*]

Banning someone for life is in no way an equivalent to a death sentence. It's the equivalent of being banned from law or the police or something for life after serious misconduct.

A death sentence is a death sentence. A life ban from a game is not.

I'd forgotten the Haider incident. Dare I say that considering everything, Pakistan can count themselves very fortunate to be allowed in international cricket? It looks like they've cleaned house but for a while there they were ridiculous.

I think some of you are running the risk of trivializing mental illness and Chris Cairns' hold on Vincent. It's all very well saying "Oh Cairns could never have done anything" but would you be thinking that in Vincent's position? If Amir is sympathised with for supposedly being fearful of Salman Butt (something that isn't on record at all iirc) then Vincent deserves the same treatment.

Amir is a cheat and letting him back in the game is a joke because the only reasons he is allowed back are youth and talent. I can't believe anyone would want to share a dressing room with him and I look forward to Dale Steyn tickling his rib cage and the crowds chanting "no ball!" after every ball Amir bowls.

There is a massive double standard in play and any success he has in the game will be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[Bahnz]

Amir is a cheat and letting him back in the game is a joke because the only reasons he is allowed back are youth and talent.

Repetition of tired and flawed arguments.

Refusal to seriously engage with counter-arguments.

Hypothesising about the motivations of players in order to unnecessarily denigrate them.

Emotional and belligerent language.

Are we 100% sure that Blocky didn't react to his banning by knocking Flem unconscious and taking over his CW account for the afternoon?

 

[cnerd123]

Dare I say that considering everything, Pakistan can count themselves very fortunate to be allowed in international cricket?

Yes.

 

[smash84]

Amir's return challenged in court | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[morgieb]

Repetition of tired and flawed arguments.

Refusal to seriously engage with counter-arguments.

Hypothesising about the motivations of players in order to unnecessarily denigrate them.

Emotional and belligerent language.

Are we 100% sure that Blocky didn't react to his banning by knocking Flem unconscious and taking over his CW account for the afternoon?

Well I don't think he's alone here though in fairness. Bit different to Blocky.

 

[Fusion]

He's a fixer. This isn't a first offense like swearing at an umpire or maybe even starting a fight on the field. He was young but he knew what he was doing and he was paid very well for it.

That's right, he's a fixer. Therefore, unlike swearing at an umpire, he didn't just merely get fined or suspended for a match. He went to prison and was suspended for 5 years. He didn't get off lightly. Those that ridicule the punishment he served are taking the prison aspect very lightly, not to mention the big chunk of his career that he'll never get back. It's all his fault of course and every bit of it deserved, but let's not pretend that he got off lightly.

I think people get emotional about this because Amir dragged the game through the mud and people make excuses for him because he was a little 17 year old tulip who couldn't read or write but was uber-talented.

He knows more than I do about how to deal with fixing situations because he's been educated about it, so the third world poor little him argument doesn't wash.

I agree it's both that he's talented and young that did the trick. Asif got the book thrown at him because he had he wrong numbers next to his date of birth.

Amir can redeem himself and live an excellent life in many other ways, but like with Lou Vincent it shouldn't be in cricket. I might be in the minority but I think someone with depression is at least as vulnerable as a 17 year old with the world at their feet.

I agree he knew it was wrong. Even if he didn't, ignorance is not an excuse in my book. I keep coming back to the fact though that he was young. Not every young kid is perfect ffs. Add to it a culture of corruption and your seniors telling you to cheat, and I can see why he would be tempted. Lastly, to lump everyone who sympathize with him as only caring because he's got talent, is frankly offensive. I don't care if it's Mohammad Amir or Mohammad Sami that's in question, my opinion about crime, punishment, and redemption wouldn't change. You may have a different perspective on how to deal with people in situation like these, and that's perfectly fine. I would hope people would realize that others have a different view, and that view is not driven by the talent level of the player in question.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

@Flem

It is on record about Amir being threatened. In their phone transcript Majeed treated Amir like dirt and put a lot of pressure on him.

And you say that he has a second chance in life in something other than cricket. I would like to know what other opportunities are there for an uneducated Pakistani criminal from a poor family?

 

[GotSpin]

Was he actually 17?

 

[morgieb]

Was he actually 17?

18 tbh.

Now whether this age is actually legit is another question given he's Pakistani. But I think they've been more accurate about age testing lately.

 

[Daemon]

@Flem

If your argument was that a precedent needs to be set then I'd agree completely, but if you think Amir should be treated like how you'd treat a 25 year old dude that grew up in a middle class first world country then I honestly believe that you're lacking cultural awareness here, you really need to see how ****ed up things are in places like India and Pakistan to get some perspective.

 

[sledger]

Should Amir himself not have had some perspective? The guy supposedly grew up in squallor but had risen to the highest ranks in international sport, and would have been living an extremely luxurious lifestyle (relatively speaking at least) at the time of his cheating. One would have hoped that this would have given him some sense of perspective.

Anyway, this is clearly all about his ability. I don't care for discussion of his age, or circumstances or so on. If it wasn't for the fact that he was (possibly still is) an absolutely mercurical talent there is no way he would have ever been allowed to play again - to claim otherwise is to bury your head in the sand. Sets a rubbish precedent for my money.

I feel cold hearted in saying this, but I won't really be wishing him all the best. Whenever I begin to feel a shred of sympathy for him I just think of all the other kids out there who would give absolutely everything they had to have anything close to the ability that Amir had/has. To abuse your talents in a way that brings shame on your entire profession sets a terrible example for anyone with earnest ambitions to succeed in said profession, and is not only extremely disrespectful to them and to all your peers, but its completely unforgivable.

 

[cnerd123]

Should Amir himself not have had some perspective? The guy supposedly grew up in squallor but had risen to the highest ranks in international sport, and would have been living an extremely luxurious lifestyle (relatively speaking at least) at the time of his cheating. One would have hoped that this would have given him some sense of perspective.

That would have shown him everything he stands to lose should he not comply with Butt and Asif

 

[Agent Nationaux]

"What then changed between the Oval Test, when Majeed in all probability did not have Amir to bowl deliberate no-balls, and the night of the 25th, the eve of the Lord’s Test, when, from his confident tone and the specific nature of the predictions, he obviously did?

Amir takes up the story:
‘At around lunchtime on the 25th I got a call from Majeed to go and meet him in the car park of the team hotel. I was in the shower, and so I told him I would be down in five minutes and when I got the lift, Salman was also there. I went to Mazhar’s car, got in and all of a sudden it was as if someone launched an attack. He said to me: “you’re in big trouble, bro. You’re trapped and your career is at stake.” I said: “Bro, what exactly has happened?” He replied that my calls with Ali had been recorded buy the ICC police. I told him that, in any case, I had not done anything with Ali, but he insisted that a friend of his knew that they had a file with my name on it. He said he could help me out of my difficulties but that I had to do a favour for him in return. I asked him “what favour?” That’s when he mentioned the two no-balls.’

‘I realise now that nobody is more stupid than me, that I could not see how ridiculous it was that one the one hand he should be telling me that I was in trouble with the ICC and on the other that I should bowl him two no-balls. But I was panicking and I had lost the ability to comprehend what was going on. After about five minutes, Salman joined us and he sat in the back seat, leaning over between the two front seats, just listening. He didn’t say anything.
‘I told him that it was impossible because my feet were always behind the line, that it was a wrong thing to do and that I was scared. He told me not to worry and to practise bowling them at Lord’s during the practice sessions before the match. He said not to worry because Salman would be with me and would help me. I got out of the car and Salman, who still hadn’t said anything at this point, stayed behind. I was worried now and went and sat on the team bus to go to practice, worrying about what I was to do’

‘At Lord’s it was raining if I remember and we went to practise in the indoor school. Salman came up to me again and asked me whether I was going to bowl them. I told him again that I was scared. He said, “do it, nothing will happen.”’
Evidently at some stage during the afternoon of the 25th, before Majeed met the journalist at the Copthorne Tara hotel in the evening with the specifics of the fix, Amir decided to accede to their request. The phone records show that in the late afternoon of the 25th, after practice had finished, Amir spoke to Majeed for a minute at 5.30 p.m., to Majeed’s brother Azhar for a minute at 7.15p.m., and again to Majeed at 7.30 p.m. and 7.55 p.m. In between there were texts about tickets for the match. At 9.25 p.m. Amir texted Majeed his room number and by the time this meeting had finished the deed had been agreed.

At no stage, insists Amir, did Majeed mention anything about money.
From Amir’s hotel, Majeed went to meet the journalist at the Copthorne Tara with his now confident predictions.
What are we to make of Amir’s story? Nobody else has spoken of the meeting in Majeed’s car, as well they wouldn’t since Butt pleaded not guilty and Majeed would not want to jeopardise the mitigation of his own guilty plea. It is Amir’s word only.

Three pieces of evidence corroborate his story.

The first is the phone data which shows that between around 12.25p.m. and 12.40 p.m. on the 25th, all three parties were in the vicinity of Swiss Cottage where the team hotel (the Marriott) was. Sometime after 11.09 a.m. Majeed made his way from Chelsea and arrived in NW3 at around 11.43 a.m. At 13.05 p.m. Majeed’s phone trail put him on Park Lane. Phone data put both Amir and Butt at the team hotel in Swiss Cottage, prior to heading off to Lord’s for the afternoon practice. Amir’s phone revealed he arrived at Lord’s no later than 1.24 p.m. It is conceivable, then, from the phone evidence that the meeting took place.

The importance of August 25th for Amir is manifest from the phone evidence: this was the first time he had any contact with Majeed’s ‘safe’ phone. Throughout the episode, Majeed used two phone numbers, one ending in ‘786’, with which he seemed to conduct his normal business, and one ending in ‘819’ from which many of his suspicious calls and texts were made. The first contact Amir had with the ‘819’ number was at 11.12 p.m. on the 25th- during the meeting with the journalist in which the no-balls were promised in great detail.

The third is Amir’s curious text sent from Mazhar Majeed’s brother’s phone on August 28th, after the NOTW had informed the police and after the police had searched the three cricketers’ rooms. After that search, Amir was in the hotel lobby when he bumped into Azhar Majeed, Mazhar’s brother. He asked to use his phone and he sent the following text to Ali: ‘Amir here. Don’t call my phone. ICC police have taken my phone. Are you able to delete those calls you made to me. If you can do it, ok. Don’t reply.’

This text is consistent with Amir’s story that he knew nothing of the meetings between Majeed and the journalist, nothing of that scam and nothing of the money that was on offer from Mahmood’s fictional syndicate. At this stage, he was convinced that he was in trouble for his conversations with Ali before the Oval Test, not for the no balls he bowled for Majeed during the Lord’s Test. He says Majeed and Butt had told him that he would be finished, that the ICC knew of his incriminating conversations with Ali. Amir’s actions in texting Ali and telling him about the ‘ICC police’ are consistent with that.

Here is the irony: Amir bowled the no-balls because he thought, by doing so, it might help save his career. He was troubled by his involvement with Ali, and he says his captain and agent- two of his closest friends, remember- had warned him that this would jeopardise his career and they promised to help him out of his difficulties, if he bowled the no balls. Instead of saving his career, the no-balls ended it.

But what of the money, of the marked £1500 that was found in his room? Shortly after 9.30 p.m. after the first day’s play at Lord’s, Amir sent two texts to Majeed saying ‘ok’ and ‘come 227’. Majeed made his way to Amir’s room and it was at this point that Majeed gave Amir the £1500 in what turned out to be marked notes. Amir says that Majeed arrived into his room ‘looking like he had hit the jackpot, he was so happy. Like when I am happy to get a wicket, he was happy. He said “you are my younger brother” and he was buzzing with excitement. He suddenly came forward and told me to keep £1500. I said I didn’t need it. Why would I need it? I don’t require those things. He insisted, saying keep it anyway. He insisted.’

‘I knew why he was happy and that’s why I said I didn’t need it. He gave it to me in an envelope and I put it in the safe away from my own money. I had £8000 of my own money lying open in a bag. I never set eyes on Mazhar’s money and I didn’t touch it. No-one is that stupid not to realise that if he is getting me to deliver the no-balls, it must be because of some sort of bet. This was precisely the reason which I knew was behind his happiness.’

Clearly, Amir knew that he had done wrong, that he had, to use his own words, ‘cheated cricket’. Nevertheless, there is still no reason to suspect that Amir knew of Majeed’s scam with the NOTW journalist, nor the £150,000 that had been handed over. Financial gain played no part in Amir’s decision to bowl the no-balls. ‘I didn’t do it for money,’ he says. He also says that they would not have had to make up the story about the ICC knowing about his texts to Ali, if they were sure that he would simply do it for the money.

In the trial, Butt painted a picture of Amir as being far from an innocent. There are only two things to say in respect of any earlier evidence of fixing: one is that a source within the ICC’s anti-corruption unit acknowledged that at no stage before the summer of 2010 was Amir’s conduct under suspicion (despite the deep suspicion that descended on many of his team-mates). And as Justice Cooke said in his summing up, there is no evidence that Amir was engaged in a fix at the Oval.

Second, is the reaction of the journalist’s initial source, who is known to the Times. This source initially alerted the ICC to his suspicions and it was only after he became frustrated by the ICC’s inaction that he contacted the journalist. In doing so, the source’s aim was to shine a light on the corrupt practices within the Pakistan team. Amir was an unintended consequence of that.

There are a number of horrendous ironies in all this, not the least of which is Amir’s brilliance during the two matches in question. He was Man of the Match at the Oval and bowled superbly at Lord’s. Perhaps the greatest irony is that Amir thought, because of the warnings he says he was given by Majeed and Butt in the car, that he was bowling two no balls at Lord’s to save his career, when in fact they ended it."

I agree with Atherton. The boy was stuck and under pressure. No one would throw away their career for £1,500.00

 

[hendrix]

Anyway, this is clearly all about his ability. I don't care for discussion of his age, or circumstances or so on. If it wasn't for the fact that he was (possibly still is) an absolutely mercurical talent there is no way he would have ever been allowed to play again - to claim otherwise is to bury your head in the sand. Sets a rubbish precedent for my money.
.

I feel like you haven't read many posts in this thread...

 

[sledger]

Haha, whatever the **** gave you that idea?

 

[hendrix]

it's ridiculous to not care for circumstance. That's not an attitude that's upheld in any fair system. You can't just dismiss these things when deciding on punishment.

 

[sledger]

That's not the point I am making. Obviously circumstance is important when determining the level of punishment. What I was claiming is that us talking about all these things is by the by. What is undisputable in my mind, is that, as I say, were it not for the fact that he is/was really really good, he'd have been banned for life. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

That's not the point I am making. Obviously circumstance is important when determining the level of punishment. What I was claiming is that us talking about all these things is by the by. What is undisputable in my mind, is that, as I say, were it not for the fact that he is/was really really good, he'd have been banned for life. I have no doubt about that whatsoever.

if he wasn't "really good" he wouldn't be playing international cricket at age 18 and no-one would care if he bowled deliberate no-balls or not

 

[Furball]

1. Everyone knew about match fixing, but very little was known about spot fixing. The news sites all had to explain what exactly it was. Without thinking about how badly it rips off bookmakers (and remember, gambling is illegal in Pakistan so who cares about them), it didn't even seem that wrong initially when I explained it to some friends. Of course, it's very, very wrong, but in a sense it's like insider trading where you have an understanding of finance to actually make sense of how wrong it is. It's not something that is intuitively as wrong as match fixing.
2. How many players from Pakistan have said this? I just don't believe their useless board has been as good at player education as England's.
3. Who knows how many others in the team were fixers? The captain, leading fast bowler, and other senior players have all been implicated. Mohammed Yousuf has had murmurings about him. Waqar. Wasim. The one guy in the Pakistan team with a reputation for absolute honesty is someone who's been repeatedly screwed over by his board and the players.
4. Chris Cairns' threats are empty. There is nothing he could have done to Vincent. Sure depression is a horrible thing but you know exactly what you're doing. I won't go as far as to say it's not a mitigating factor at all, but I do believe his crimes were far worse than Amir's.

Amir played at an U19s World Cup, he'd have been educated by the game's governing body on the subject of match fixing.