Marshall Vs Sobers

[Slifer]

People say things and just repeats them

The Australian batsmen that Marshall faced in multiple tours

Kepler Wessels
Allan Border
Dean Jones
David Boon
Steve Waugh
Mark Taylor

All of those batsmen averaged over 40 in test cricket in the 80's and 90's, that's worth how much in the 2000's?

We can do this for every team.

Boycott, Gooch, Gower, Smith, Gatting, Lamb etc.

Want to compare that to the English, Pakistani, New Zealand and Sri Lankan batting lineups that Warne faced.

How about the WI, SA, Pakistan, English, SL & NZ teams that Bumrah is currently facing.

Stop with the narrative, the 80's wasn't the mess that the early 70's was.

Don't worry Kyear, i respect that Aussie lineup Marshall faced and did well against in the 1991 series at home. That team had a solid lineup with Keppler, Border, Jones, Boon who were all seasoned veterans and Mark Taylor who after 20 odd tests, was averaging 60 odd.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm back and I have to read the same old bs. "Marshall is lucky to not average a bit higher? " And Bishop and Ambrose doing the heavy lifting? Are you serious? Marshall didn't do smash and grabs or whatever you want to call it towards the end of his career. He eeked out wickets the same way he always did , through skill and intimidation. Marshall ended his career early simply because of inter island politics, nothing more nothing else.

If Marshall was as good as before why was he dropped to 3rd/4th seamer.

And I hate the implications from your earlier posts that make it seem as if Marshall had it easy being a part of the WI quartet. He didn't. Being under 6 feet and forcing his way into the team and staying there when there were a multitude of others waiting in the wings wasn't easy. He failed in his initial tour in India in the late 70s. A repeat of that in other early 80s series and he'd have been replaced. By who you ask: Clark, Daniels, Stephenson, etc.

Let's see. Playing in the best team in the world. The greatest pace support in the world. Friendly pitches.

Seems like he had a combo of advantages other pacers did not. Whether he had to fight to get in the team isn't my point.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't worry Kyear, i respect that Aussie lineup Marshall faced and did well against in the 1991 series at home. That team had a solid lineup with Keppler, Border, Jones, Boon who were all seasoned veterans and Mark Taylor who after 20 odd tests, was averaging 60 odd.

What about the weak ones he faced throughout the 80s and in Aus? Can we at least acknowledge that or is it taboo?

 

[OverratedSanity]

People say things and just repeats them

The Australian batsmen that Marshall faced in multiple tours

Kepler Wessels
Allan Border
Dean Jones
David Boon
Steve Waugh
Mark Taylor

All of those batsmen averaged over 40 in test cricket in the 80's and 90's, that's worth how much in the 2000's?

We can do this for every team.

Boycott, Gooch, Gower, Smith, Gatting, Lamb etc.

Want to compare that to the English, Pakistani, New Zealand and Sri Lankan batting lineups that Warne faced.

How about the WI, SA, Pakistan, English, SL & NZ teams that Bumrah is currently facing.

Stop with the narrative, the 80's wasn't the mess that the early 70's was.

Those are individual batsmen, the lineups as a whole were pretty mediocre through most of the 80s.

 

[subshakerz]

Those are individual batsmen, the lineups as a whole were pretty mediocre through most of the 80s.

Yeah. I am surprised I have to debate this. Next will be that England were a strong team in the 90s too.

 

[Slifer]

What about the weak ones he faced throughout the 80s and in Aus? Can we at least acknowledge that or is it taboo?

He faced weak lineups as well yes but that's not unique to Marshall. Let's use today's bowlers: outside of Australia (at home) every team has a pretty weak batting lineup. For goodness sake WI and Rsa for example, both have zero players averaging above 35. At least Australia in the 80s had Border, Dean Jones and Kepler. And for the last time, all the wickets in the Caribbean are not pace friendly 2 are, 2 are flat and the other a mixed bag. And that's irrelevant, because Marshall excelled in Asia and especially in Pakistan on wickets that made Lillee cry.

 

[subshakerz]

He faced weak lineups as well yes but that's not unique to Marshall. Let's use today's bowlers: outside of Australia (at home) every team has a pretty weak batting lineup. For goodness sake WI and Rsa for example, both have zero players averaging above 35. At least Australia in the 80s had Border, Dean Jones and Kepler. And for the last time, all the wickets in the Caribbean are not pace friendly 2 are, 2 are flat and the other a mixed bag. And that's irrelevant, because Marshall excelled in Asia and especially in Pakistan on wickets that made Lillee cry.

I think my point was relative to other ATGs, he faced strong lineups relatively less, not never. So far I haven't seen disagreement on that. I consider him no.1 btw so this isn't to knock him down.

 

[Slifer]

I think my point was relative to other ATGs, he faced strong lineups relatively less, not never. So far I haven't seen disagreement on that. I consider him no.1 btw so this isn't to knock him down.

Yeah I still don't see how he's overrated either. Most of us rate him in the top 3 and that, imo is indisputable. He's not the Bradman of fast bowlers either.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I still don't see how he's overrated either. Most of us rate him in the top 3 and that, imo is indisputable. He's not the Bradman of fast bowlers either.

Kyear and others do overrate the extent he is ahead of all other pacers, present him as perfect in record in all respects, some I have seen put him literally around next after Bradman here. He is great but others are his near equals.

 

[Slifer]

Kyear and others do overrate the extent he is ahead of all other pacers, present him as perfect in record in all respects, some I have seen put him literally around next after Bradman here. He is great but others are his near equals.

If you can quote where other posters (outside of Kyear) rate Marshall along side Bradman, I'd like to see that. None of us do. And compared to his challengers, his record is perfect: balanced average, sr, wpm and econ. Balanced home and away. Great record vs all comers and especially in Asia.

 

[subshakerz]

If you can quote where other posters (outside of Kyear) rate Marshall along side Bradman, I'd like to see that. None of us do. And compared to his challengers, his record is perfect: balanced average, sr, wpm and econ. Balanced home and away. Great record vs all comers and especially in Asia.

Kyear didn't say that. He does see Marshall as the 3rd best cricketer ever though which is wild to me.

Marshalls record is better. Not perfect as I have pointed out. The differences with the others is not that big especially when you account for the advantages he had. Better scoreboard pressure, better bowling support, weaker opposition. All adds up.

 

[Sunil1z]

You can be ATG yet over rated.
For eg. I think both Tendulkar and Warne are top tier ATG yet over rated .

 

[subshakerz]

You can be ATG yet over rated.
For eg. I think both Tendulkar and Warne are top tier ATG yet over rated .

Yup. Marshall is one of CWs sacred cows apparently.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Kyear didn't say that. He does see Marshall as the 3rd best cricketer ever though which is wild to me.

Marshalls record is better. Not perfect as I have pointed out. The differences with the others is not that big especially when you account for the advantages he had. Better scoreboard pressure, better bowling support, weaker opposition. All adds up.

I don’t think Marshall is the 3rd best cricketer ever but it’s not wild really to think that. If someone thinks and rightfully so that he is the best bowler ever to walk this planet then idk how can he not have arguments for 3rd spot?

 

[ma1978]

You people love to selectively parse stats when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn’t. There’s a case for Sobers to be a top 5 cricketer of all time and a case for Marshall. Sobers played in the most flat, insipid batting era ever when draws were the norm. Does this take away from his greatness? Of course not but let’s be clear, everyone has holes in their record bar Bradman

 

[Coronis]

You people love to selectively parse stats when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn’t. There’s a case for Sobers to be a top 5 cricketer of all time and a case for Marshall. Sobers played in the most flat, insipid batting era ever when draws were the norm. Does this take away from his greatness? Of course not but let’s be clear, everyone has holes in their record bar Bradman

That’s not true. He conveniently skipped playing New Zealand in his sole opportunity. He also conveniently skipped Australia’s tour to South Africa because he was afraid of their pitches.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think Marshall is the 3rd best cricketer ever but it’s not wild really to think that. If someone thinks and rightfully so that he is the best bowler ever to walk this planet then idk how can he not have arguments for 3rd spot?

Of course he can...and we can debate it. And yes there have been crazier opinions.

 

[ma1978]

You people love to selectively parse stats when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn’t. There’s a case for Sobers to be a top 5 cricketer of all time and a case for Marshall. Sobers played in the most flat, insipid batting era ever when draws were the norm. Does this take away from his greatness? Of course not but let’s be clear, everyone has holes in their record bar Bradman

-q

That’s not true. He conveniently skipped playing New Zealand in his sole opportunity. He also conveniently skipped Australia’s tour to South Africa because he was afraid of their pitches.

If Virat Kohli skipped a tour to Uganda or Papua New Guinea, I wouldn’t hold it against him. Same thing

 

[Coronis]

-q

If Virat Kohli skipped a tour to Uganda or Papua New Guinea, I wouldn’t hold it against him. Same thing

Uganda and Papa New Guinea don’t play tests.

 

[ma1978]

Uganda and Papa New Guinea don’t play tests.

Neither did New Zealand or South Africa in any meaningful sense when Bradman was playing