Lehmann Dropped For Ashes

[vic_orthdox]

my father is reading lehmann's autobiography and was saying how when lehmann was playing for victoria in the early 1990s, only a few weeks before the pura cup final he got hit in the head at his club's nets. he came back to play in the final (he was put through a fitness test with paul reiffel bowling short at him to make sure that he was ready to play, paul reiffel came down the wicket after the first ball and told him that he'd take it easy on him) but the next year he was still scarred by it, and got dropped from the victorian team. he had to do a season's worth of work to get himself ready to play the short ball again.

 

[Richard]

Whoopdedoo... 9 tests with an average of 58. He played on three tough turners in Sri Lanka and did really well, and one seaming wicket where he was the best batsman, and five flat wickets. And he averaged... 58. Off the exact same 9 tests, Hayden scored 1301 runs @ 86.73. Even if you take out his 380, he averaged 61.40, higher than Lehmann's average in the period you pick out as his ultimate peak. Same conditions for both players exactly. Lehmann scored 2 hundreds to Hayden's 1 in Sri Lanka in fairly tough turning conditions, and Lehmann outperformed Hayden on the seaming wicket in Darwin with two scores around 50 compared to Hayden's 37 and 2. On the flat decks, Hayden left Lehmann for dead.

And as far as picking out one arbitrary area where a player did well and using it to prove their class, between the 1st Indian test in 2001 and the 1st Sri Lankan test in Sri Lanka in 2004, Hayden scored 4123 runs @ 73.63.

I agree that Lehmann is a better player than the bulk of his test career might suggest, but he had CLEAR weaknesses and your refusal to acknowledge them doesn't do you any favours. To suggest he is even in the same league as Martyn against pace bowling is a joke.

So Lehmann, who's played probably a third of his career on about the most seam-friendly wicket going around, is less good against seam and swing that Martyn who's played on the slightly less seam-friendly WACA for more of his career than not?
Sorry, don't understand how that works.
I am perfectly well aware of Hayden's regrettable massive scoring orgy; the point is Hayden has done all that scoring on non-seaming pitches (and on the rare occasions he's batted on a seamer he's been exposed).
Had Lehmann had the same opportunity I'm fairly convinced he'd have done the same.
In the Lehmann period I expressly removed the Bangladesh Tests which would have made the average look even better; therefore with Hayden both the Zimbabwe Tests, not just the 380 one, must be removed. The Zimbabwe Test, of course, drags down Lehmann's average.
Lehmann is clearly a very complete player and while Martyn is just about as good at present it took him far longer to achieve than Lehmann and had Lehmann got the chance Ponting got in 1998\99 I'm fairly confident he'd have become possibly even greater than Ponting has ended-up.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

So Lehmann, who's played probably a third of his career on about the most seam-friendly wicket going around, is less good against seam and swing that Martyn who's played on the slightly less seam-friendly WACA for more of his career than not?

Relevance? Hayden played most of his FC career on an extremely seamer-friendly wicket as well, and averages in the high 50s on it, and yet you still believe him incapable of playing in seaming conditions. By that standard, the fact that Lehmann has played extensively at Headlingly isn't particularly meaningful either. And let me tell you, the difference between a Gabba greentop and a Headlingly terror track isn't as big as you might think, the Gabba in the 90s produced some absolutely vicious wickets, particularly in domestic cricket.

In the Lehmann period I expressly removed the Bangladesh Tests which would have made the average look even better; therefore with Hayden both the Zimbabwe Tests, not just the 380 one, must be removed. The Zimbabwe Test, of course, drags down Lehmann's average.

I never included the second Zimbabwe test, because you didn't. I said the SAME 9 tests you included - the last three against the West Indies, the 1st against Zimbabwe, and the 5 against Sri Lanka. Over those matches, Hayden averaged in the high 80s, and if you remove the Zimbabwe test he averaged in the low 60s.

Lehmann is clearly a very complete player and while Martyn is just about as good at present it took him far longer to achieve than Lehmann and had Lehmann got the chance Ponting got in 1998\99 I'm fairly confident he'd have become possibly even greater than Ponting has ended-up.

Lehmann was a very, very good player, but he had a weakness against quality pace bowling that probably would have been exposed had he been given a more extensive run in the mid 90s. He did well on seaming wickets generally, but never had to spend much time on them at the highest level, and as I said other players who are now considered weak in seaming conditions have a similarly impressive record in domestic cricket in such conditions. He would have had a successful career had he been give more opportunities early on, but not in the Martyn/Ponting/Waugh/Gilchrist/Hayden class.

 

[marc71178]

So Lehmann, who's played probably a third of his career on about the most seam-friendly wicket going around

A third?

Which 1 ground are you talking about?

 

[Richard]

Err - Headingley?

 

[superkingdave]

I'd very much doubt its anywhere near a third, probably more like a tenth

 

[Richard]

Relevance? Hayden played most of his FC career on an extremely seamer-friendly wicket as well, and averages in the high 50s on it, and yet you still believe him incapable of playing in seaming conditions. By that standard, the fact that Lehmann has played extensively at Headlingly isn't particularly meaningful either. And let me tell you, the difference between a Gabba greentop and a Headlingly terror track isn't as big as you might think, the Gabba in the 90s produced some absolutely vicious wickets, particularly in domestic cricket.

I don't doubt that - but I do know that every time Hayden has faced the ball seaming and swinging in Test-cricket he's not been up to it.
I don't understand any more than you how he scored runs (if he scored runs of course - if he didn't just do exactly what he's done in Test-cricket and score enough on the flat wickets he did get to gloss over his many failures on seamers) on the 'Gabba pitches of the '90s, it doesn't change what's happened in his Test-career.

I never included the second Zimbabwe test, because you didn't. I said the SAME 9 tests you included - the last three against the West Indies, the 1st against Zimbabwe, and the 5 against Sri Lanka. Over those matches, Hayden averaged in the high 80s, and if you remove the Zimbabwe test he averaged in the low 60s.

I didn't remove the Zimbabwe Tests, you can (sadly) remove only 1 team on StatsGuru and I chose Bangladesh. Any more and you have to do it manually.

Lehmann was a very, very good player, but he had a weakness against quality pace bowling that probably would have been exposed had he been given a more extensive run in the mid 90s. He did well on seaming wickets generally, but never had to spend much time on them at the highest level, and as I said other players who are now considered weak in seaming conditions have a similarly impressive record in domestic cricket in such conditions. He would have had a successful career had he been give more opportunities early on, but not in the Martyn/Ponting/Waugh/Gilchrist/Hayden class.

And you cannot even begin to know that; if people with their flaws can succeed, Lehmann certainly can.

 

[Richard]

I'd very much doubt its anywhere near a third, probably more like a tenth

Maybe a third is a slight overestimate, but it's certainly way more than a 10th.
Maybe CricketArchive Gurus might be able to throw more light...

 

[superkingdave]

well from Cricket Archive i count 25 First Class matches played at headingly, out of a career spanning 248

 

[marc71178]

I'd very much doubt its anywhere near a third, probably more like a tenth

I was going to say that.

For a start, he's played far less seasons in England than in Aus, so it comes below half, then factor in the small matter of half of the games in a season being away from home.

 

[Richard]

In which case I find it impossible to believe.
He's played at least 5 full seasons, surely he must have played a few more than that.

 

[marc71178]

He's only played 1 full season in the last 6 - when did he start there?

 

[Richard]

His first season may have been 1997 or 1998, and while his only completely full season was 2001 he's had plenty of near-full seasons and I'm amazed if he's only played 25 First-Class matches there.

 

[marc71178]

2004 - 7
2002 - 10
2001 - 13
2000 - 16
1999 - 10

Cricinffo doesn't go back to 97 or 98, but it does show how little he's actually played at Headingley.

 

[Jnr.]

His first season may have been 1997 or 1998, and while his only completely full season was 2001 he's had plenty of near-full seasons and I'm amazed if he's only played 25 First-Class matches there.

Well, you'll be amazed.

He has, in fact, only played 25 FC matches at Headingley, for 2198 runs at 62.80, 5 x 100's.
First-class Batting and Fielding On Each Ground by Darren Lehmann

 

[Richard]

Well that is absolutely extraordinary.
Still his 2nd-most-common ground, though, and his record there is still pretty darn impressive given it's typical pitch.

 

[Richard]

2004 - 7
2002 - 10
2001 - 13
2000 - 16
1999 - 10

Cricinffo doesn't go back to 97 or 98, but it does show how little he's actually played at Headingley.

Well it does go back to 1998, and the figures you've given as 1999 are in fact 1998.
He didn't play in 1999, due to WC99; Greg Blewett filled-in, and was a massive let-down.