Leading Oz coaches refuse to teach doosra

[benchmark00]

teach em to chuck. may as well

Not as stupid as it sounds.

If I was teaching a kid how to become a world class off spinner, and I had many resources available to me, I'd train his muscles to know roughly where 14 degrees is. If you don't use significant amount of straightening it's nearly impossible to be a really top class finger spinner. It's a different playing field.

 

[uvelocity]

if theres one of us that sounds stupid, it's jono

 

[BoyBrumby]

It is a little bit short sighted and clear lack of knowledge, which is surprising from a former spinner to group the doorsa and carron ball together. Anyone can bowl the carron ball without flexing.

I always find it strange that when an Australian coach see a good leg spinner, the teach him the wrong on. But when an Australian coach see a off spinner they don't teach a spinner the carron ball. They invented the ball.

If that the thought process from the top of Australian cricket, let the spin cycle continue for many more decades.

I just re-read the article and it doesn't seem to mention the carrom ball at all...

 

[TNT]

Not as stupid as it sounds.

If I was teaching a kid how to become a world class off spinner, and I had many resources available to him, I'd train his muscles to know roughly where 14 degrees is. If you don't use significant amount of straightening it's nearly impossible to be a really top class finger spinner. It's a different playing field.

You would only need to teach him not to flex during testing, there is no need to keep under 15deg in a match.

 

[chaminda_00]

I just re-read the article and it doesn't seem to mention the carrom ball at all...

I was more mentioning the fact that he labelled Narine's and Mendis' carrom ball, a doorsa. Whereas they are two completely different balls. Therefore indicating his care lack of understanding of modern spin bowling. If he thinks they are the same balls, with the same action and flexing issues.

I don't think that any of his quotes he clears names the players in question. As he can't, but we all know he is referring to bowlers like Narine, Mendis and Ashwin who don't bowl traditional doorsa. As well as other bowlers that bowl traditional doorsa like Murali, Saqlain and Harbarjan.

I don't personally don't agree you should be teaching spinners or fast bowlers how to throw, just based on the belief everyone else does why can't we.

The situation is no real different then fast bowlers in the 50s and 60s who came out with dodgy actions, because some coaches felt top bowlers like Lindwall and Larwood chucked in previous eras and got away with. So they never cleaned up some dodgy actions at FC and junior levels. Then players got found out at Test level and got 'thrown' out of the game.

But at the same time quite of few of those bowlers we have found out have similar natural straightening issues to some modern bowlers and were bowling as clean as they could.

I don't think you can really have a hard and fast rule when it comes to chucking.

Someone who bowls at 150km/h doesn't make them a chucker, but the same is true if someone bowls a new variation bowl with a different action.

 

[uvelocity]

I don't personally don't agree you should be teaching spinners or fast bowlers how to throw, just based on the belief everyone else does why can't we.

The situation is no real different then fast bowlers in the 50s and 60s who came out with dodgy actions, because some coaches felt top bowlers like Lindwall and Larwood chucked in previous eras and got away with. So they never cleaned up some dodgy actions at FC and junior levels. Then players got found out at Test level and got 'thrown' out of the game.

you can't give other teams at this level such an advantage. Australia has had two decent spin bowlers in 30 years, both leggies. administration of the game has proven it is very difficult nowadays to be removed for chucking, so that element would be of little concern.

 

[chaminda_00]

you can't give other teams at this level such an advantage. Australia has had two decent spin bowlers in 30 years, both leggies. administration of the game has proven it is very difficult nowadays to be removed for chucking, so that element would be of little concern.

The thing is Jason Krejza can bowl the carrom ball with a straight action. It just he has been discouraged to bowl it by Australian officials, because of their traditional approach.

Both he and Dan Cullen have also 'bowled' the traditional doorsa.

Both have varying success with the variations, like most spinners. But both were discouraged to work on those balls by Australian official, even though one of them can ball it without straightening.

I think you find that Bailey's comments during the T20 WC was a loaded statement to change the Australian officials stance on those types of balls, to increase the chance of his team mate getting back into the Australian team. As well as move the side forwards.

I think you need to remove the chucking aspects of the discussion now their is variation that can be bowled with a normal action. Australian officials need to look beyond the chucking issues and coach fingers spinners to try and bowl with more natural variety. There is already two that have played FC cricketers that are capable of it. I'm sure there would be more if they stopped their traditional stance.

 

[uvelocity]

you know more about their variations than I do for sure. I thought the same as bailey before he said it though, if you can't beat em join em. the fact is there are plenty of chuckers getting around lower levels of cricket, they are being stopped before getting to the top based on some idea of ethics I guess, there is no time for that anymore

 

[vic_orthdox]

If your stock ball isn't dangerous enough, you won't take wickets in Test, or One Day cricket. Alex Loudon bowled a doosra. Exactly.

T20 is a different story, where having the batsman in some sort of doubt where the ball is going to go is quite important, otherwise they can just thrown their hands through the ball.

 

[chaminda_00]

If your stock ball isn't dangerous enough, you won't take wickets in Test, or One Day cricket. Alex Loudon bowled a doosra. Exactly.

T20 is a different story, where having the batsman in some sort of doubt where the ball is going to go is quite important, otherwise they can just thrown their hands through the ball.

Does your stock bowl have to be an off break?

Loudon's failure had as much to do with the fact he had a poor doorsa as a stock bowl and a generally average off break.

You look at someone like Paul Adams who stock bowl wasn't a leg break, but a wrong un and he took plenty of Test wickets, without the so called traditional stock ball.

 

[vic_orthdox]

No, because there's hardly a person out there who spins a carrom ball more than their off-spinner; maybe Mendis (could argue that it is his stock ball). Simply because you are relying on your fingers only, rather than the use of the wrist - too much of that and it makes the ball too easy to pick.

Stock ball doesn't mean traditional off-spinner, it just means the ball that you are going to bowl the majority of the time. It has to be consistent and dangerous to succeed in longer formats, which we gear our spinners towards.

Stock ball is different for lots of bowlers - Damien Fleming's was an out-swinger, just because he bowled fast-medium doesn't mean it was the same as Paul Reiffel's.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I was more mentioning the fact that he labelled Narine's and Mendis' carrom ball, a doorsa. Whereas they are two completely different balls. Therefore indicating his care lack of understanding of modern spin bowling. If he thinks they are the same balls, with the same action and flexing issues.

I don't think that any of his quotes he clears names the players in question. As he can't, but we all know he is referring to bowlers like Narine, Mendis and Ashwin who don't bowl traditional doorsa. As well as other bowlers that bowl traditional doorsa like Murali, Saqlain and Harbarjan.

The article doesn't mention Mendis or Ashwin at all tho.

He does list Narine alongside Murali and Ajmal, but from what I've seen the former's "knuckleball" isn't quite the same as the carrom ball Mendis and Ashwin send down.

What Narine does have in common with Ajmal and Murali is a chucky action, although his isn't of even vaguely the same magnitude of dodgy.

 

[chaminda_00]

The article doesn't mention Mendis or Ashwin at all tho.

He does list Narine alongside Murali and Ajmal, but from what I've seen the former's "knuckleball" isn't quite the same as the carrom ball Mendis and Ashwin send down.

What Narine does have in common with Ajmal and Murali is a chucky action, although his isn't of even vaguely the same magnitude of dodgy.

The same article/quotes from Inverarity has been in every major newspaper in Australia, with different names included. But all the different articles have the same under tone about the 'mystery' spinners in general.

Narine is slightly different case, as his off break is also chucky, so it a general thing with his action not just 'knuckleball'.

 

[Faisal1985]

How is it "illegal" when you are not straightening your arm past 15 degrees?

Also if bowling a doosra was so easy if bowled with an "unconventional" action then why do we have such a small number of bowlers who are bowling it at the international level? Since ICC made the law about straightening the arm now it should not be as big a deal to learn eh?

The English and the Australian coaches just admit that you got pretty darn late on catching up to this innovation.

For those who think it can't be bowled with a conventional action (without any degree of straightening of the arm) I am pretty sure Saqlain bowled it well without going "unconventional" on his action.

 

[Jono]

if theres one of us that sounds stupid, it's jono

You want to be Benchy so bad.

 

[benchmark00]

You want to be Benchy so bad.

So do you tbf.

My traps are glistening.

 

[Jono]

Look at the big shot from the Gong.

 

[Prince EWS]

Just read this article on cricinfo.

If so, is it any coincidence that we don’t really have anyone who can bowl the doosra with any great proficiency and will that change on the day we discover our own Doosra Doctor?

And that is the source of my confusion with linking the doosra to the question of integrity. I’m not convinced that the integrity issue will stand the test of time if Australia accidentally discovers a home-grown exponent of this delivery.

Absolute rubbish. Cricket Australia already put the kibosh on Krejza's doosra, which was developing quite nicely. Chaminda mentioned a Cullen doosra as well - I must say I wasn't aware of that but I'll take his word for it too. Whether Invers is right here or not, he's not going to backflip as soon as Australia their own doosra bowler, because any attempts to develop the delivery have been quashed. It's not even that they aren't teaching it; they're actively discouraging it.

 

[Jono]

double posting wanker

 

[Jono]

double posting wanker