Leading Oz coaches refuse to teach doosra

[Streetwise]

Debateable that Jenner has it TBH. Many people have commented that he's not really much of a coach who just happened to work well as a personal mentor to Warne.

And that is precisely what a coach is supposed to do. It not what people say its what you do that matters.

 

[Richard]

Just because a personal coach can be a good thing for some players doesn't mean wide-serving coaches who teach the same thing to lots of players are no use.

What I'm coming to disagree with is - at high levels at least, less so at grass-roots - coaches who supposedly excel in all areas. I much prefer specialist fielding, batting, seam-bowling and spin-bowling coaches.

 

[Streetwise]

Just because a personal coach can be a good thing for some players doesn't mean wide-serving coaches who teach the same thing to lots of players are no use.

What I'm coming to disagree with is - at high levels at least, less so at grass-roots - coaches who supposedly excel in all areas. I much prefer specialist fielding, batting, seam-bowling and spin-bowling coaches.

Jenner and Mallett excel with spin bowlers, disagree with that all you like but the only outcome is you would be wrong.

 

[pup11]

This is what I'm talking about, White does not have the talent that Warne or Mendis has and there is nothing you can do to make him a Warne or Mendis. If it was that simple every team would have a Warne and a Murali along with a McGrath and Ambrose in their team. Coaching is indentifying the talent then developing it which are skills that Jenner and Mallett both have.

Of course White would have never turned himself into the next Shane Warne, but with better guidance atleast he could have become a serviceable option with the ball, but he was always forced by Jenner to develop his leg-spinner, rather then looking to improve his basic technique and work with strengths he had.

I'm not sure a bloke like Anil Kumble would have taken 600 odd test wickets, had someone told him stop bowling his fastish top-spinners and start concentrating on developing a leggie that turns.

That's where I don't think people like Mallet or Jenner and other Aussie spin coaches and mentors have been smart enough to adapt their coaching methods keeping in mind the kind of individual they are working with.

 

[Streetwise]

Of course White would have never turned himself into the next Shane Warne, but with better guidance atleast he could have become a serviceable option with the ball, but he was always forced by Jenner to develop his leg-spinner, rather then looking to improve his basic technique and work with strengths he had.

I'm not sure a bloke like Anil Kumble would have taken 600 odd test wickets, had someone told him stop bowling his fastish top-spinners and start concentrating on developing a leggie that turns.

That's where I don't think people like Mallet or Jenner and other Aussie spin coaches and mentors have been smart enough to adapt their coaching methods keeping in mind the kind of individual they are working with.

No I dont think you understand that if someone is not capable of something they are just not capable of doing it. White had the best guidence available but could not achieve something he was incapable of. Its the same with batsmen, for example Hick had all the coaches available but just didnt have the ability. Was it the England batting coachs poor guidence that Hick failed.

 

[Richard]

Jenner and Mallett excel with spin bowlers, disagree with that all you like but the only outcome is you would be wrong.

Considerable evidence that Jenner actually does nothing of the sort, and has in fact done nothing for so much as a single bowler apart from Warne.

Mallett though is certainly a quality coach.

 

[Richard]

No I dont think you understand that if someone is not capable of something they are just not capable of doing it. White had the best guidence available but could not achieve something he was incapable of. Its the same with batsmen, for example Hick had all the coaches available but just didnt have the ability. Was it the England batting coachs poor guidence that Hick failed.

Nothing like the same for Hick. There are examples you could use for the point you're trying to prove - Chris Adams or Darren Maddy for instance - but Hick is not one.

 

[Streetwise]

Considerable evidence that Jenner actually does nothing of the sort, and has in fact done nothing for so much as a single bowler apart from Warne.

Mallett though is certainly a quality coach.

All the evidence I have witnessed is the opposite of what you say but I'm willing to look at this evidence you have that shows that Jenner does not.

 

[Richard]

Ask smack orthdox - he seemed to be saying precisely that earlier this thread.

All I've heard is hundreds of people saying the same thing - that Jenner doesn't really know tonnes about bowling wristspin, merely got lucky with Warne, and in trying to turn everyone else into Warnes has turned some bowlers who might've been good enough to play grade first team into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more.

 

[Streetwise]

All I've heard is hundreds of people saying the same thing - that Jenner doesn't really know tonnes about bowling wristspin, merely got lucky with Warne, and in trying to turn everyone else into Warnes has turned some bowlers who might've been good enough to play grade first team into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more.

Evidence would be to name some of these players that might've been good enough to play grade first team turned into nothing of the sort and bowlers barely able to bowl any more, Carrying on about White is futile because his own mentor Hookes was the first to tell White that he would only ever be a batsman who could bowl a few overs and would never be a bowler.

If you are going to provide evidence of something I would expect it to be more than you read it on some forum.

 

[Richard]

Far more than just reading on some forum. Have heard lots of people say\write it, and have heard lots of others talk\write about how they've heard others say\write it.

If you expect me to have recorded or bookmarked every instance I've heard and read though, I'm afraid you're asking too much.

I never mentioned White FTR so don't know why you're directing that comment at me, haven't the first clue about who's coached him all career.

 

[BoyBrumby]

"No filthy chuckers in the baggy green" sez Invers

From cricinfo.

Basically saying he thinks the delivery is a chuck. Or gets as close as the threat of litigation and politeness allows a national selector to, anyway.

Wouldn't take too much more for me to turn for him right now. Legend.

 

[Spooony]

Totally agree with Australia. Chuckers are chuckers and they are everywhere batting with short sleeves bowling with long sleeves. Suddenly half the sub continents turners have suddenly developed the condition Murali had which gave him a valid reason. The others are chuckers I see next one is the Sri Lankan youngster bowling with a arm more bend than a tea pot. Bring back Daryll Hair

 

[GotSpin]

 

[Top_Cat]

From cricinfo.

Basically saying he thinks the delivery is a chuck. Or gets as close as the threat of litigation and politeness allows a national selector to, anyway.

Wouldn't take too much more for me to turn for him right now. Legend.

My previous thoughts/feelings for Invers continue to speak for me.

 

[chaminda_00]

It is a little bit short sighted and clear lack of knowledge, which is surprising from a former spinner to group the doorsa and carron ball together. Anyone can bowl the carron ball without flexing.

I always find it strange that when an Australian coach see a good leg spinner, the teach him the wrong on. But when an Australian coach see a off spinner they don't teach a spinner the carron ball. They invented the ball.

If that the thought process from the top of Australian cricket, let the spin cycle continue for many more decades.

 

[Spooony]

Carrom ball is a type of spin not a luckey packet ball and it was first used by Iversen way way back

But this

Percentage of legal bowlers for range of acceptable mean elbow extension angle tolerances

Elbow extension angle shows no correlation with ball speed across the sample.

A box and whisker plot of mean, standard error and standard deviation also shows the variability of both intra- and inter-group elbow extension angle data. For instance, the group with the lowest and most stable elbow extension angle was the medium-pace group. In contrast, the group with the most variability was the spin bowling group. It would be impractical to consider imposing different elbow extension angle limits on each bowling group.

 

[Neil Pickup]

England Cricket News: Testing methods hold back England | ESPN Cricinfo on the topic... seems to translate along the lines of "teach kids to chuck until someone's got the balls to call them on it".

Just a matter of time before the **** hits the fan, you'd think...

EDIT: Spoony, please explain the graph and table!

 

[chaminda_00]

That slow bowling chart illustrates the short sighted and lack of creatively of non sub continent spin bowling coaches.

Where is the tradition variations for finger spinners; arm ball and top spinners. What about left arm wrist spinners. Most can bowl more then just a leg break and wrong on. What about flipper or top spinner, just because your left handed doesn't mean you can bowl them.

 

[uvelocity]

teach em to chuck. may as well