pup11
International Coach
Looking at those stats i have got to say i am surprised why he was dropped from the side in the first place, his form in Odi' was poor at that time so probably the selectors decided to axe him from all forms of the game.
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Kaif , Ganguly or Badrinath - India's no 6 batsman for the Australia series
- Thread starter Salamuddin
- Start date
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
What is the relevance of ten innings by the way? How does it show whether he should be playing for India in October 2008 or not ?
Before we quote stats we should be clear about a few things. In Kaif's case :-
Others seem to have played much more cricket because he was dropped exactly halfway through the year. For that first half of the year also, he is very high on that Indian averages list though he yields the top spot to Dravid who averaged 74.7 in the first half of 2006.
Calendar year 2006, as taken by me, is also arbitrary. We can always use stats and pick periods depending upon what suits our argument.
His past record, the record just before he was dropped can be used only to understand why he was dropped and whether it was justified or not.
The fact is that his run of low scores ran to just three innings. in two Test matches, thats all . If I was to list al the batsmen who have failed in three consecutive innings or two Test matches and continued enjoying the trust of the selectors, this post will run into many pages - trust me. So lets at least not lose perspective talking of ten Test innings or any such arbitrary data.
A failure in three consecutive innings could be enough to drop a youngster making his debut (not always) or for someone who even before those three innings wasn't really in the pink of form. Thats why we need to see his run of scores before the 'poor run' of the three innings. Hence the preceding 4 innings (a run in itself albeit a good one) in three Tests becomes relevant.
Take these three Tests with the two Tests that followed and you see how he was faring when he was dropped.
It was surprising to put it mildly considering that the last four Tests (in two he scored 214 runs for once out and in the other two 19 in three innings) were all in the same series.
Here are the Indian batting averages for that series.
Can anyone recall a batsman (not to old to play any longer) who has been dropped, and forgotten for two full years, after averaging 56 plus in his last Test series. I cant. Tell me.
And he is not old, he is not a por fielder, he does not have an attitude issue, he does not bad mouth his colleagues or the selectors or his captain with tongue-in-cheek remarks. Should I tell you whats his weakness? He comes from a weak state, is completely unglamorous off the field and is not a super star.
They are the one's who are held to completely different sets of standards in our country. Its the fate of Amarnath, Laxman, Kumble and could be the fate of people like Badrinath too. Although, not all of them came from as weak a side, politically within the Indian cricketing set up, as UP.
Finally, Kaif should not have been dropped when he was but he cant be picked for the Indian side because of how well he was batting in 2006. He has to be picked on current form, which fortunately for him is good.
Before we quote stats we should be clear about a few things. In Kaif's case :-
1. Kaif played his last test match more than two years ago so those figures don't tell anything about his current form one way or the other.
2. The fact remains that he was droped from the Indian side for much more flimsy reasons than have been applied to his more illustrious, or well-supported, team mates. Here are the facts to support that.
3. In the year 2006, the last year he played for india in tests, here is how Indian batsmen fared.
2. The fact remains that he was droped from the Indian side for much more flimsy reasons than have been applied to his more illustrious, or well-supported, team mates. Here are the facts to support that.
3. In the year 2006, the last year he played for india in tests, here is how Indian batsmen fared.
Code:
[B]Player Tests 50s 100s HS Runs Avg[/B]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Kaif 5 1 1 148* 317 63.4[/COLOR][/B]
Dravid 12 7 3 146 1095 60.83
Jaffer 9 3 2 212 689 40.53
Laxman 10 4 1 100 561 40.07
Sehwag 12 2 2 254 791 39.55
Ganguly 4 1 0 51* 173 34.6
Pathan 7 2 0 90 274 30.44
Dhoni 12 2 1 148 557 29.32
Yuvraj 9 0 1 122 339 28.25
Sachin 8 1 0 63 267 24.27Others seem to have played much more cricket because he was dropped exactly halfway through the year. For that first half of the year also, he is very high on that Indian averages list though he yields the top spot to Dravid who averaged 74.7 in the first half of 2006.
Calendar year 2006, as taken by me, is also arbitrary. We can always use stats and pick periods depending upon what suits our argument.
His past record, the record just before he was dropped can be used only to understand why he was dropped and whether it was justified or not.
The fact is that his run of low scores ran to just three innings. in two Test matches, thats all . If I was to list al the batsmen who have failed in three consecutive innings or two Test matches and continued enjoying the trust of the selectors, this post will run into many pages - trust me. So lets at least not lose perspective talking of ten Test innings or any such arbitrary data.
A failure in three consecutive innings could be enough to drop a youngster making his debut (not always) or for someone who even before those three innings wasn't really in the pink of form. Thats why we need to see his run of scores before the 'poor run' of the three innings. Hence the preceding 4 innings (a run in itself albeit a good one) in three Tests becomes relevant.
- 91,
- 13 & 46 no
- 148 no
Take these three Tests with the two Tests that followed and you see how he was faring when he was dropped.
It was surprising to put it mildly considering that the last four Tests (in two he scored 214 runs for once out and in the other two 19 in three innings) were all in the same series.
Here are the Indian batting averages for that series.
Code:
[B]Player Mts Runs 50s 100s Avg[/B]
Dravid, R 4 496 4 1 82.7
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Mohammad Kaif, 4 226 0 1 56.5[/COLOR]
Jaffer, W 4 372 2 1 53.1
Sehwag, V 4 357 1 1 51.0
Laxman, V V S 4 257 1 1 36.7
Dhoni, M S 4 168 1 0 24.0
Yuvraj Singh, 4 104 0 0 17.3And he is not old, he is not a por fielder, he does not have an attitude issue, he does not bad mouth his colleagues or the selectors or his captain with tongue-in-cheek remarks. Should I tell you whats his weakness? He comes from a weak state, is completely unglamorous off the field and is not a super star.
They are the one's who are held to completely different sets of standards in our country. Its the fate of Amarnath, Laxman, Kumble and could be the fate of people like Badrinath too. Although, not all of them came from as weak a side, politically within the Indian cricketing set up, as UP.
Finally, Kaif should not have been dropped when he was but he cant be picked for the Indian side because of how well he was batting in 2006. He has to be picked on current form, which fortunately for him is good.
Last edited:
Perm
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My thoughts on the Kaif debate are well-known, and I've felt for a long time that Mohammad Kaif isn't one of the best four middle-order batsmen in India and therefore does not deserve to be in the Test side. His international career has largely been disappointing IMO and his success at Test level has been influenced heavily by one innings, his 148* against the West Indies on a flat pitch where India compiled almost 600 runs for the loss of eight wickets.
Sure, his 91 against England was a good knock, as were his half-centuries against Australia in 2004. But I think people are giving Kaif a little too much credit so far in his Test career, because he's mostly been poor. I would like to see him being given another chance, and his form certainly demands it, but just a couple of months ago almost every Indian supportor I knew was clamouring for Badrinath to be in the Test team. Now, according to a fair few, Kaif is the supposed obvious choice. I hope they are not disappointed if he fails, but I shall keep an open mind.
Sure, his 91 against England was a good knock, as were his half-centuries against Australia in 2004. But I think people are giving Kaif a little too much credit so far in his Test career, because he's mostly been poor. I would like to see him being given another chance, and his form certainly demands it, but just a couple of months ago almost every Indian supportor I knew was clamouring for Badrinath to be in the Test team. Now, according to a fair few, Kaif is the supposed obvious choice. I hope they are not disappointed if he fails, but I shall keep an open mind.
Perm
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
VVS Laxman, and it is quite likely he will bat in that position.
As for the poll and taking into account certain circumstances, such as Ganguly not being selected for the Rest of India, then I'd opt for Badrinath. I do think it is tough on Ganguly though, but India's reserve batsmen (Kaif and Badrinath) are coming into their peaks. So far Kaif has been blooded, along with Yuvraj (when his ODI form was deserving of it) and so now I feel that Badrinath should be picked. He has been the star batsmen in India for the past couple of seasons, Test players aside, and I would like to see him make his Test debut in this series.
adharcric
International Coach
Kaif and Badrinath should both be in the test squad - it's only a question of who plays in the first test. Kaif may actually be in better form at the moment and he impressed the selectors against Australia A. Both are superb fielders (Badrinath probably better) but one thing in Badrinath's favor is that he bowls good part-time off-spin, which could be a factor with India only playing four specialist bowlers. Let's see how the two fare in the Irani Trophy and the tri-series.
Top_Cat
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Dean Jones. Averaged 51 in Sri Lanka (including scores in the first couple of Tests for a change), had a couple of early season failures for Victoria, was dropped for the home series against the WI (Mark Waugh took his spot despite 4 blobs on the trot against SL), never played Tests again.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
You are right about his not being a fixture in the Indian batting line up for all these years but that is also because we had such a solid phalanx with Dravid, Sachin, VVS and Ganguly. Now we are looking at replacements.
Unfortunately, Yuvraj hasn't performed so that is one of the contenders (of those who were in the queue, out. Kaif was the other from that time. Badani is now history. Of the new comers Raina and Rohit have shown most promise. Unfortunately Rohit is out of form.
That leaves Raina and Kaif. Add Badrinath from those who have since joined the 'queue'. I think the selectors wil chose from this lot.
It really is a toss up. Raina is youngest of the lot. Badri has the game and the temprament AND the experience. I would chose between him and Kaif more for their temprament than any flaw with Raina.
BTW, when I wrote about Kaif in the previous post it was not so much to push for his case but to show that the past performances dont have a bearing on his current prospects. Just thought it needs clarification.
anoop4real
U19 12th Man
Badrinath is far better that Kaif IMO....
pup11
International Coach
I think out of all these young Indian batsmen Raina looks like the most exciting prospect, he is a left-handed batsman so in that way too he brings variety to the middle order, he looks like a compact player, uses his feet well to the spinners, so he can be in with a shout for a test spot in the future, but for that he would have to iron out a few technical flaws in his batting.
But for now Badrinath should be the most obvious choice to replace Ganguly in the test squad.
But for now Badrinath should be the most obvious choice to replace Ganguly in the test squad.