Jacques Kallis vs Keith Miller

[Line and Length]

Miller was at his best when the game was tight and there to be won. He never was a flat track bully or one who performed well against minnows. A case in point was his deliberate first ball duck when Bradman's Invincibles scored 721 in a day.
It was said of Miller, "He likes a fight or nothing at all."

 

[BazBall21]

Statistics were a total irrelevance to him, but his statistics alone make him one of the greatest all-round cricketers of all time. One of my favourite players ever.

 

[Coronis]

Assuming it is an ATG side and you have a loose spot at no.6.

Kallis then

 

[honestbharani]

I guess the closest comparison to Miller among the cricketers I have seen would be Stokes?

 

[trundler]

Definitely think he deserves credit for being an X factor player but I don't think his FC batting average is much of a point in his favour as all rounders genuinely take a bump in at least one discipline when they move from FC to tests. It's a near universal rule. It's probably partly the increased intensity and partly the fact that all rounders are forced to bat lower down the order and/or don't get the new ball as much in tests. Secondly, Aussie Shield pitches had been roads since at least Noble's time. Nearly every batsman of note from Noble and Hill on averaged way more in the Shield so you'd naturally expect Miller's average to be slightly less too. His record and performances at #5 certainly do justify the statement that his average undersells his batting ability though but such is the case for loads of all rounders like Botham and Stokes.

 

[subshakerz]

As I suspected, this is a much tighter poll. I feel you can legitimately make a good case for either and then change your mind.

 

[mr_mister]

I always understood why people said Miller's batting average was inconsistent with his ability, ie it should have been higher but for various reasons, not all ones I agree with mind you. Only could be bothered trying in pressure situations is a bit dubious but yeah his FC average is certainly solid and did justify him batting top 5 in tests

Never understood why people claimed his bowling average was unjustified or flattered him though. Is it just the low WPM?

 

[ImpatientLime]

My perception of Miller is he never had a professional attitude toward the game. He might have been the most naturally gifted cricketer (even more so than Sobers perhaps), but his not giving a **** about things would simply won’t fly in today’s professional environment imo.

define naturally gifted

 

[Chrish]

define naturally gifted

Being able to excel in certain discipline without much trying.

 

[Bolo.]

I always understood why people said Miller's batting average was inconsistent with his ability, ie it should have been higher but for various reasons, not all ones I agree with mind you. Only could be bothered trying in pressure situations is a bit dubious but yeah his FC average is certainly solid and did justify him batting top 5 in tests

Never understood why people claimed his bowling average was unjustified or flattered him though. Is it just the low WPM?

The idea is that his low low WPM came from him being used as an impact bowler. So he spent less time bowling dry/tired etc. than you would expect of a bowler with his average. Which gives him a lower average.

No idea the extent to which this impacts his average. Logically it makes sense though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The idea is that his low low WPM came from him being used as an impact bowler. So he spent less time bowling dry/tired etc. than you would expect of a bowler with his average. Which gives him a lower average.

No idea the extent to which this impacts his average. Logically it makes sense though.

Not consistent with reality. He bowled 25-30+ overs an innings at times when he needed to, there are also a lot of games where he hardly bowled at all because he didn't need to.

Looking at his career and spells he bowled in general I can't see why his average would be any different if he bowled more regularly. If anything he bowled less when bowling conditions were helpful which could have pushed his average the other way. Hard to imagine that he would have averaged less than he did though.

 

[Bolo.]

Not consistent with reality. He bowled 25-30+ overs an innings at times when he needed to, there are also a lot of games where he hardly bowled at all because he didn't need to.

Looking at his career and spells he bowled in general I can't see why his average would be any different if he bowled more regularly. If anything he bowled less when bowling conditions were helpful which could have pushed his average the other way. Hard to imagine that he would have averaged less than he did though.

Cant say I know enough about him to dispute this. He bowled a lot in less in losses and draws though. This probably reflects well on him on the whole, but does seem to indicate the opposite of the point you are making.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Cant say I know enough about him to dispute this. He bowled a lot in less in losses and draws though. This probably reflects well on him on the whole, but does seem to indicate the opposite of the point you are making.

Chicken or the egg I guess. If a gun bowler bowls less there's obviously a lower chance you're going to win and it's more likely to be a loss or a draw

 

[ImpatientLime]

Being able to excel in certain discipline without much trying.

the idea he didn't try much has no basis in reality tho.

the idea that 'gifted' guys like miller and botham didn't work at their game and just succeed off of fairy dust and charisma is underselling the work that goes into being that good.

 

[TheJediBrah]

the idea he didn't try much has no basis in reality tho.

It does tho, been written about a lot re. Miller

 

[Red]

Not consistent with reality. He bowled 25-30+ overs an innings at times when he needed to, there are also a lot of games where he hardly bowled at all because he didn't need to.

Looking at his career and spells he bowled in general I can't see why his average would be any different if he bowled more regularly. If anything he bowled less when bowling conditions were helpful which could have pushed his average the other way. Hard to imagine that he would have averaged less than he did though.

Miller didn’t always take a large bowling workload because the team configuration had Lindwall in it as a spearhead, and Bill Johnston who was able to switch between seam and spin and bowl really long economical spells. Then there were guys like Loxton and Toshack who could do similar to Johnston, and spinners like Johnson, Ring and later on Benaud. And Davidson later on

Those sides often had 5 if not 6 legit bowling options, so Miller was often used for very short spells, meaning his avg and SR reflected his ability, but his wpm is a bit irrelevant when assessing how good a bowler he actually was, which was outstanding.

 

[Johan]

I promise , I will not die if I don't see another Kallis comparasion thread for a few days.

I should make Jacques Kallis vs Ken Barrington

 

[Bolo.]

Miller didn’t always take a large bowling workload because the team configuration had Lindwall in it as a spearhead, and Bill Johnston who was able to switch between seam and spin and bowl really long economical spells. Then there were guys like Loxton and Toshack who could do similar to Johnston, and spinners like Johnson, Ring and later on Benaud. And Davidson later on

Those sides often had 5 if not 6 legit bowling options, so Miller was often used for very short spells, meaning his avg and SR reflected his ability, but his wpm is a bit irrelevant when assessing how good a bowler he actually was, which was outstanding.

You don't think bowling short spells had an effect on his SR or average? Bowling tired or dry tends to have a notable impact on quicks.

 

[Red]

You don't think bowling short spells had an effect on his SR or average? Bowling tired or dry tends to have a notable impact on quicks.

Wasn’t my point, but sure. He’s often criticised for his WPM. My point was, he was an elite quick. Even if his average or SR blew out a few points, he’d still be elite.

 

[Burgey]

define naturally gifted

Princess Margaret was right

Imagine the swathe that bloke would cut on the modern circuit