a massive zebra
International Captain
Who's the better Test bowler?
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Jacques Kallis vs Ben Stokes
- Thread starter a massive zebra
- Start date
kyear2
International Coach
I think this is true of every bowler who has ever played the enforcer role, including both guys in this poll.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Statistically the opposite is true.
First 52 Tests: 127 wickets @ 31.92 with 4 5fers
Last 53 Tests: 76 wickets @ 32.40 with 0 5fers
You could say the decline in wickets/impact is due to injuries, but ultimately injuries are part of what make you the bowler you are, and the average has not improved.
His injury also meant he played only as a batsmen for a while. That needs to be filtered out.
After 25 odd Tests he was averaging high 30s with the ball. Since then he's averaged under 30. Since he took over the captaincy he is still averaging 30ish and with a far better strike rate (50ish vs 60). Bowled less, but bowled well whenever he has.
Kallis averaged high 20s in his first 25 tests. Maintained that for a while, but then saw a noticeable drop off in bowling performance.
Stokes hasn't played as many games yet so we don't know how it ends for him, but as of now he has the edge on Kallis.
Last edited:
a massive zebra
International Captain
Nice to see a close poll! 
a massive zebra
International Captain
But you said Stokes has continued to improve with time. The improvement to which you refer took place in the second quarter of his career, not recently. As I showed, his record in the second half of his career is inferior to the first.
Stokes average as captain is 29, that's not comfortably under 30. Also, he has taken barely a wicket per match (35 wickets in 27 Tests) as captain. I think virtually any objective person would take an extra 1.5 wickets per match for a couple of runs extra per wicket, as Stokes was doing in the first half of his career vs his time as captain.
Also when comparing bowling over time, I don't agree we should ignore the period where he was playing as a batsman only, because in this period his value to the team as a bowler was zero, as reflected in the stats.
Last edited:
I edited my post before you replied, so you missed your "got you" moment and shot yourself in the foot instead.
You looking at Stokes bowling average as "Captain" is wrong as you fail take into account the game he captained in Roots absence which doesn't count as him taking over as captain.
You also still fail to take into account the games Stokes only played as a batsmen when he was captain.
And lol yes a bowling average of 29 is comfortably under 30. In what world isn't it? You're not very good at this stats stuff are you.
Last edited:
No I said " more so the opposite and has been getting better. " in reference to Kallis.
Stokes averaged high 30s afters 25 Tests and 30ish after that. How exactly is that not getting better in reference to Kallis who went from averaging high 20s to mid 30s? There averages went in opposite directions as their careers progressed.
I await your answer and please try not to make yourself look like an idiot again mentioning Stokes lack of wickets per Tests which include the time he was playing as a specialist batsmen
Last edited:
thierry henry
International Coach
Shut up you drunk idiot
Last edited:
sayon basak
International Debutant
But you don't, if I may say.
thierry henry
International Coach
Correct, I definitely exist. Stokes…..eh
I missed this derp.
The thread is asking who is the " Who's the better Test bowler?" and the irony is that you're even the OP. Now you're trying to use an all-rounder comparison metric to compare bowling.
If a bowler is unable to bowl then he isn't getting picked for the team, his wickets per Tests record goes unblemished. If Stokes was only a bowler he wouldn't have played in the Tests where he was only fit enough to bat and his wickets per Tests record goes unblemished. You thinking those Tests reflect on his Test bowling quality is hilarious!
a massive zebra
International Captain
There was no gotcha moment and quoting what you actually said is hardly shooting myself in the foot.
The stats I quoted are correct as per cricinfo and do reflect his bowling record in matches in which he was the official captain. There are always going to be ocassional periods in odd matches where the official captain is not actually captaining out on the field, but these happen rarely enough to ensure they don't materially impact the overall picture.
What are you talking about? I absolutely did take into account the games Stokes only played as a batsmen when he was captain. That was my whole point that they should be included as they reflect him impact and effectiveness as a bowler in the matches in which he is captain
You don't seem to understand the difference between "under" and "comfortably under". Yes his bowling average as captain is under 30. But its only a run under 30, and if he concedes just 46 runs in his next innings without taking a wicket - which could easily happen - his average as captain will exceed 30. So as it could easily exceed 30 in his very next innings, his average as captain is certainly not comfortably under 30.
Last edited: