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Jacques Kallis vs Ben Stokes

Who is/was the better Test bowler?


  • Total voters
    21

howitzer

State Captain
Depends which Kallis you are looking at. Think Kallis up until the 2003 English summer would work out as better but he was almost always a change bowler thereafter.
 

reyrey

U19 Captain
Kallis saw a drop off in his bowling as his career progressed, Stokes more so the opposite and has been getting better.

Close one, but I'll go with Stokes. Also think he'd have better stats if he didn't play that enforcer role.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
Kallis saw a drop off in his bowling as his career progressed, Stokes more so the opposite and has been getting better.

Close one, but I'll go with Stokes. Also think he'd have better stats if he didn't play that enforcer role.
I think this is true of every bowler who has ever played the enforcer role, including both guys in this poll.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
Kallis saw a drop off in his bowling as his career progressed, Stokes more so the opposite and has been getting better.
Statistically the opposite is true.

First 52 Tests: 127 wickets @ 31.92 with 4 5fers
Last 53 Tests: 76 wickets @ 32.40 with 0 5fers


You could say the decline in wickets/impact is due to injuries, but ultimately injuries are part of what make you the bowler you are, and the average has not improved.
 

reyrey

U19 Captain
Statistically the opposite is true.

First 52 Tests: 127 wickets @ 31.92 with 4 5fers
Last 53 Tests: 76 wickets @ 32.40 with 0 5fers


You could say the decline in wickets/impact is due to injuries, but ultimately injuries are part of what make you the bowler you are, and the average has not improved.
His injury also meant he played only as a batsmen for a while. That needs to be filtered out.

After 25 odd Tests he was averaging high 30s with the ball. Since then he's averaged under 30. Since he took over the captaincy he is still averaging 30ish and with a far better strike rate (50ish vs 60). Bowled less, but bowled well whenever he has.

Kallis averaged high 20s in his first 25 tests. Maintained that for a while, but then saw a noticeable drop off in bowling performance.

Stokes hasn't played as many games yet so we don't know how it ends for him, but as of now he has the edge on Kallis.
 
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a massive zebra

International Captain
After 25 odd Tests he was averaging high 30s with the ball. Since then he's averaged under 30.
But you said Stokes has continued to improve with time. The improvement to which you refer took place in the second quarter of his career, not recently. As I showed, his record in the second half of his career is inferior to the first.

Since he took over the captaincy he is still averaging under 30 comfortably and with a far better strike rate (48 vs 60). Bowled less, but bowled well whenever he has.
Stokes average as captain is 29, that's not comfortably under 30. Also, he has taken barely a wicket per match (35 wickets in 27 Tests) as captain. I think virtually any objective person would take an extra 1.5 wickets per match for a couple of runs extra per wicket, as Stokes was doing in the first half of his career vs his time as captain.

Also when comparing bowling over time, I don't agree we should ignore the period where he was playing as a batsman only, because in this period his value to the team as a bowler was zero, as reflected in the stats.
 
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reyrey

U19 Captain
But you said Stokes has continued to improve with time. The improvement to which you refer took place in the second quarter of his career, not recently. As I showed, his record in the second half of his career is inferior to the first.



Stokes average as captain is 29, that's not comfortably under 30. Also, he has taken barely a wicket per match (35 wickets in 27 Tests) as captain. I think virtually any objective person would take an extra 1.5 wickets per match for a couple of runs extra per wicket, as Stokes was doing in the first half of his career vs his time as captain.

Also when comparing bowling over time, I don't agree we should ignore the period where he was playing as a batsman only, because in this period his value to the team as a bowler was zero.
I edited my post before you replied, so you missed your "got you" moment and shot yourself in the foot instead.

You looking at Stokes bowling average as "Captain" is wrong as you fail take into account the game he captained in Roots absence which doesn't count as him taking over as captain.

You also still fail to take into account the games Stokes only played as a batsmen when he was captain.

And lol yes a bowling average of 29 is comfortably under 30. In what world isn't it? You're not very good at this stats stuff are you.
 
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reyrey

U19 Captain
But you said Stokes has continued to improve with time.
No I said " more so the opposite and has been getting better. " in reference to Kallis.

Stokes averaged high 30s afters 25 Tests and 30ish after that. How exactly is that not getting better in reference to Kallis who went from averaging high 20s to mid 30s? There averages went in opposite directions as their careers progressed.

I await your answer and please try not to make yourself look like an idiot again mentioning Stokes lack of wickets per Tests which include the time he was playing as a specialist batsmen
 
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reyrey

U19 Captain
Also when comparing bowling over time, I don't agree we should ignore the period where he was playing as a batsman only, because in this period his value to the team as a bowler was zero, as reflected in the stats.
I missed this derp.

The thread is asking who is the " Who's the better Test bowler?" and the irony is that you're even the OP. Now you're trying to use an all-rounder comparison metric to compare bowling.

If a bowler is unable to bowl then he isn't getting picked for the team, his wickets per Tests record goes unblemished. If Stokes was only a bowler he wouldn't have played in the Tests where he was only fit enough to bat and his wickets per Tests record goes unblemished. You thinking those Tests reflect on his Test bowling quality is hilarious!
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
I edited my post before you replied, so you missed your "got you" moment and shot yourself in the foot instead.
There was no gotcha moment and quoting what you actually said is hardly shooting myself in the foot.

You looking at Stokes bowling average as "Captain" is wrong as you fail take into account the game he captained in Roots absence which doesn't count as him taking over as captain.
The stats I quoted are correct as per cricinfo and do reflect his bowling record in matches in which he was the official captain. There are always going to be ocassional periods in odd matches where the official captain is not actually captaining out on the field, but these happen rarely enough to ensure they don't materially impact the overall picture.

You also still fail to take into account the games Stokes only played as a batsmen when he was captain.
What are you talking about? I absolutely did take into account the games Stokes only played as a batsmen when he was captain. That was my whole point that they should be included as they reflect him impact and effectiveness as a bowler in the matches in which he is captain

And lol yes a bowling average of 29 is comfortably under 30. In what world isn't it? You're not very good at this stats stuff are you.
You don't seem to understand the difference between "under" and "comfortably under". Yes his bowling average as captain is under 30. But its only a run under 30, and if he concedes just 46 runs in his next innings without taking a wicket - which could easily happen - his average as captain will exceed 30. So as it could easily exceed 30 in his very next innings, his average as captain is certainly not comfortably under 30.
 
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