Jack Hobbs vs Sachin Tendulkar

[capt_Luffy]

The guilt of destroying a really great thread will haunt me for some time......

 

[capt_Luffy]

Think Luffy is the only one who comes close to disputing that.

Sorry, forgot about Pews and Coronis, but they place many above Vivian.

I, Pews, Coronis, Shortpitched, PFK, Thala (the latter probably shares my stand); off the top of my head.

 

[kyear2]

Fair. I also rate Richards ahead, mostly due to his ability to accelerate and having better series against top draws like 79 Australia (mostly 79 Australia, most of his other best series are atleast matched by 1 from Gavaskar, home or away). I just don't think the gap is much significant.

I assume that you believe that the gap between Hobbs / Tendulkar and Richards / Sobers is greater than the gap between Richards and Gavaskar.

And on that point I strenuously disagree.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I assume that you believe that the gap between Hobbs / Tendulkar and Richards / Sobers is greater than the gap between Richards and Gavaskar.

And on that point I strenuously disagree.

I more strenuously disagree with your disagreement.

 

[kyear2]

I, Pews, Coronis, Shortpitched, PFK, Thala (the latter probably shares my stand); off the top of my head.

PEWS and Coronis don't rate Viv, the why varies.
I find it hilarious when persons reference PFK and shortpitched when their views are otherwise ignored. It shows a certain level of desperation tbh.

The person you normally reference is pererhrt, but you know he rates Viv and one of the 3 best he's seen, right up there with Barry and Sachin.

 

[capt_Luffy]

PEWS and Coronis don't rate Viv, the why varies.
I find it hilarious when persons reference PFK and shortpitched when their views are otherwise ignored. It shows a certain level of desperation tbh.

The person you normally reference is pererhrt, but you know he rates Viv and one of the 3 best he's seen, right up there with Barry and Sachin.

I respect Peterhrt, but he predominantly rates people different than me. He rates them much more on impact in their time and peer reviews, hence Lillee over Marshall and McGrath or Trumper over Hutton. I believe Barry is one of his personal favourites based on watching live.
I find this discussion particularly futile on people who don't rate Viv higher, when I myself rate Viv higher. Just that the proportions gets way overblown.

 

[BazBall21]

I think myself and Kyear rate Gavaskar a little lower which is where the roots of the discussion lie. There have been other contributers.

 

[kyear2]

I more strenuously disagree with your disagreement.

And where does the general consensus lie?

Two months ago you had Gavaskar over Richards and you over rated him significantly compared to the consensus, to the point where you posted a thread asking if you were the only one who rated Sunny over the master blaster.

I don't think many rank him genuinely in the best after Bradman class, while most would include Viv and Sobers (and possibly Lara, Smith and Hutton) in such company.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think myself and Kyear rate Gavaskar a little lower which is where the roots of the discussion lie. There have been other contributers.

Mostly this I think too. The discussion got way off track by Subs' Miandad comment really.

 

[Johan]

Gavaskar vs Richards taking over Hobbs vs Tendulkar is the most CW thing possible.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And where does the general consensus lie?

Two months ago you had Gavaskar over Richards and you over rated him significantly compared to the consensus, to the point where you posted a thread asking if you were the only one who rated Sunny over the master blaster.

I don't think many rank him genuinely in the best after Bradman class, while most would include Viv and Sobers (and possibly Lara, Smith and Hutton) in such company.

I would think most don't have much between him and Hutton (can reference the Gavaskar vs Hutton thread) and most will have Hutton right in that company.
That thread wasn't 2 months old, but was from when I was totally a new comer. I literally didn't know anything about you, Coronis, Pews or any member.
The short answer, general consensus in Richards was much better. The consensus varies from region to region and person to person though. Both Sobers and Hutton rated Gavaskar higher, as did Akram.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Gavaskar vs Richards taking over Hobbs vs Tendulkar is the most CW thing possible.

I again apologize, this was a splendid thread

 

[kyear2]

I respect Peterhrt, but he predominantly rates people different than me. He rates them much more on impact in their time and peer reviews, hence Lillee over Marshall and McGrath or Trumper over Hutton. I believe Barry is one of his personal favourites based on watching live.
I find this discussion particularly futile on people who don't rate Viv higher, when I myself rate Viv higher. Just that the proportions gets way overblown.

Don't think he rates Lille over Marshall and I don't think we ever discussed McGrath, but he can speak for himself.

I will say this and move on to my Friday evening, peer review and impact are kinda important. But even more so, from '76 when Sir IVA Richards took over the mantle of the best batsman in the world from his namesake, there was not a time when he was threatened until his own decline, and the general though with regards to Sunny was that Chappell was better in the 70's and Border in the 80's. For me Sunny does benefit from the openers tax, but to suggest that he's on the heels of Viv was never seen to be true.

This doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the greatest openers ever and a top 10 bat.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Don't think he rates Lille over Marshall and I don't think we ever discussed McGrath, but he can speak for himself.

I will say this and move on to my Friday evening, peer review and impact are kinda important. But even more so, from '76 when Sir IVA Richards took over the mantle of the best batsman in the world from his namesake, there was not a time when he was threatened until his own decline, and the general though with regards to Sunny was that Chappell was better in the 70's and Border in the 80's. For me Sunny does benefit from the openers tax, but to suggest that he's on the heels of Viv was never seen to be true.

This doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the greatest openers ever and a top 10 bat.

3rd Best English Pacer/Medium pacer

Wow. Your posts are really really well thought out and very informative. Who do you consider among your top 5 AT bowlers then? In chronological order: Barnes, O'Reilly, Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall.

www.cricketweb.net

Sunny's peak was from 76 to 83..... Seems familiar? His peak totally coincided with Viv's. Chappell had the media backing and by considering 80s only, Border was better than both Viv and Sunny. Peer reviews are a bitch, unless you believe Lillee to be in a separate tier to Garner, Qadir being levels above Jadeja or Trumper being a top 10 bat ever. Impact Viv had higher, but not really as big a thing for better as greater, unless you mean SR, which again, balances by opening.

 

[kyear2]

3rd Best English Pacer/Medium pacer

Wow. Your posts are really really well thought out and very informative. Who do you consider among your top 5 AT bowlers then? In chronological order: Barnes, O'Reilly, Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall.

www.cricketweb.net

Sunny's peak was from 76 to 83..... Seems familiar? His peak totally coincided with Viv's. Chappell had the media backing and by considering 80s only, Border was better than both Viv and Sunny. Peer reviews are a bitch, unless you believe Lillee to be in a separate tier to Garner, Qadir being levels above Jadeja or Trumper being a top 10 bat ever. Impact Viv had higher, but not really as big a thing for better as greater, unless you mean SR, which again, balances by opening.

He listed them in chronological order.

Overall I think he rates O'Reilly very highly and his all time team is, in batting order

Hadlee
Marshall
O'Reilly
Barnes.

So Marshall over Lillee from that perspective.

 

[kyear2]

3rd Best English Pacer/Medium pacer

Wow. Your posts are really really well thought out and very informative. Who do you consider among your top 5 AT bowlers then? In chronological order: Barnes, O'Reilly, Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall.

www.cricketweb.net

Sunny's peak was from 76 to 83..... Seems familiar? His peak totally coincided with Viv's. Chappell had the media backing and by considering 80s only, Border was better than both Viv and Sunny. Peer reviews are a bitch, unless you believe Lillee to be in a separate tier to Garner, Qadir being levels above Jadeja or Trumper being a top 10 bat ever. Impact Viv had higher, but not really as big a thing for better as greater, unless you mean SR, which again, balances by opening.

I do have Lillee a slight tier above Garner for the most part.

Imran | Lillee | Donald | Wasim | Lindwall

Possibly Holding in that tier as well.

I don't rate Trumper's era, so that doesn't phase me.

Re Border, we kinda underrate him, but he also kinda falls behind for being dour, but he was surrounded by a **** fest at times.

He's in that

Gavaskar | Chappell | Hammond | Ponting | Border | Kallis

Tier for me.

Gavaskar because of the opener credit, Chappell largely due to WSC, Hammond because he would have been the best pre WW2 if not for Bradman, Ponting his peak and destructive ability, Border his grit and Kallis for having the toughest home pitches for the era and the sheet weight if his numbers.

Border should possibly be higher though. But I admittedly do prefer the guys who can dictate to and dominate the opponents.

 

[subshakerz]

Viv in England = Sunny in Pakistan (Both the best Batsmen in those countries (not counting Don))
Viv in Australia > Sunny in WI (Sunny had 2 Great series, but failed in the toughest one. Viv is ahead in Australia for 79, was pretty good in 76 as well; but not by a huge margin)
Viv in Pakistan = Sunny in England (Both had 1 ATG series, but mostly underwhelming)
Viv in India = Sunny in Australia (Viv did good in India in a tough series vs the quartet, but played some mid attacks as well. Sunny did Great in 79 vs Thommo and Clarke, played a 70 in a poor tour vs Lillee in a successful chase and scored heavily in 85)
Viv in NZ < Sunny in NZ (Sunny not much against Hadlee, but Viv was worse)

These are all arbitrary matches.

Viv only played a single series in NZ so overall can't be rated on that sample.

Sunny is a bigger fail in Eng than Viv in Pakistan with only one series out of five with good output.

Viv is just better in India, you are just reaching of Sunny in Aus since the bottomline he never succeeded against Lillee who was the ultimate challenge in the country whereas Viv did against their best spinners.

Viv in Eng is more impressive than Sunny in Pak, Viv has an ATG series in 76 on top of quality returns against a strong attack in 80/81 and even a good series at the end, and we can't ignore Pak has always been more batting friendly.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I do have Lillee a slight tier above Garner for the most part.

Imran | Lillee | Donald | Wasim | Lindwall

Possibly Holding in that tier as well.

I don't rate Trumper's era, so that doesn't phase me.

Re Border, we kinda underrate him, but he also kinda falls behind for being dour, but he was surrounded by a **** fest at times.

He's in that

Gavaskar | Chappell | Hammond | Ponting | Border | Kallis

Tier for me.

Gavaskar because of the opener credit, Chappell largely due to WSC, Hammond because he would have been the best pre WW2 if not for Bradman, Ponting his peak and destructive ability, Border his grit and Kallis for having the toughest home pitches for the era and the sheet weight if his numbers.

Border should possibly be higher though. But I admittedly do prefer the guys who can dictate to and dominate the opponents.

Bradman




Tendulkar
Hobbs

Sobers
Smith
Lara
Richards
Gavaskar
Hutton


Hammond
Headley
Sutcliffe
Border
Pollock
Kallis
Waugh
Chappell
Sangakkara
Ponting
Dravid
Root
Trumper

 

[subshakerz]

Mostly this I think too. The discussion got way off track by Subs' Miandad comment really.

I didn't bring Gavaskar in.

 

[capt_Luffy]

These are all arbitrary matches.

Viv only played a single series in NZ so overall can't be rated on that sample.

Sunny is a bigger fail in Eng than Viv in Pakistan with only one series out of five with good output.

Viv is just better in India, you are just reaching of Sunny in Aus since the bottomline he never succeeded against Lillee who was the ultimate challenge in the country whereas Viv did against their best spinners.

Viv in Eng is more impressive than Sunny in Pak, Viv has an ATG series in 76 on top of quality returns against a strong attack in 80/81 and even a good series at the end, and we can't ignore Pak has always been more batting friendly.

Viv failed in his series vs Hadlee. Sunny failed in one, succeeded in other. Sunny better.

Viv also has similar output except 88 in Pakistan. Sunny also had one good and another decentish tour among those 4 in England. Around equal.

He played Lillee in 3 matches. How come Viv in NZ in 3 matches vs Hadlee doesn't counts but Sunny does?? FTR he scored runs in one of those, in a successful run chase drawing the series. Scored against raging Thomson (yes, he was raging in that series) including tons in Waca and Gabba in very fast wickets and scored heavily in his last series as well. Richards failed in 83 in India, and was good vs the quartet, but not great really. Definitely equal, if Gavaskar not better.

Pak was more batting friendly, but Imran's 40 is the best series by any bowler anywhere. Imran was better in Pakistan than any English bowler in England. Sunny played more than a few such series and had great returns like his twin tons in Faisalabad against peak Imran. Also played Wasim later on. Around equal really.