ITM Cup 2010

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And I still wouldn't take Williams. Too prone to simple defensive errors - and those'll be costly in international rugby.

Who would be third half-back now? Surely (and sadly) Andy Ellis. Would rather see Kahn Fotuali'i, personally. I agree with the reserve hooker though - Rutledge doesn't have time on his side, and Hika the Hooker has had an equally decent ITM Cup season. Would still like to see Jared Payne go as a useful cover utility back.

 

[Somerset]

And I still wouldn't take Williams. Too prone to simple defensive errors - and those'll be costly in international rugby.

Who would be third half-back now? Surely (and sadly) Andy Ellis. Would rather see Kahn Fotuali'i, personally. I agree with the reserve hooker though - Rutledge doesn't have time on his side, and Hika the Hooker has had an equally decent ITM Cup season. Would still like to see Jared Payne go as a useful cover utility back.

If Jared Payne played for any other nation (Australia/SA included) I think he'd be included as utility cover in their end of season squads - but when you consider that we don't even have room for Hosea Gear, Toeava, possibly even one of Rokocoko/Sivivatu/Ranger, I think Payne's just got too much competition to make the AB squad.

Ellis would be the third choice halfback for my mind although Foutali'i wouldn't be a bad option. I don't think hes had quite as good a season for Hawkes Bay as he would've liked but hes started at 10 in several matches so has that added versatility of being able to play more than one position. Can't remember him goalkicking in those matches though.

Regarding Williams I'm much more confident in what he can offer for the national squad than I was about a month ago - I wouldn't have picked him around that time but I've been impressed watching his progress in the last few Canterbury matches. Fruean's been dynamic this season and I think hes a definite for the squad, and TBH I'd be surprised if Williams isn't named alongside him.

 

[Somerset]

Was at the Wellington/Naki game. Weepu was in a pretty bad way, but didn't really see what caused it.

Put a chip kick through and in recovering it was tackled with his lower leg twisting terribly. The ironic/sad thing about Weepu is that he wasn't even supposed to be playing in the match - initially he was scheduled to do some promotional work in Australia for the ABs...

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

If Jared Payne played for any other nation (Australia/SA included) I think he'd be included as utility cover in their end of season squads - but when you consider that we don't even have room for Hosea Gear, Toeava, possibly even one of Rokocoko/Sivivatu/Ranger, I think Payne's just got too much competition to make the AB squad.

Ellis would be the third choice halfback for my mind although Foutali'i wouldn't be a bad option. I don't think hes had quite as good a season for Hawkes Bay as he would've liked but hes started at 10 in several matches so has that added versatility of being able to play more than one position. Can't remember him goalkicking in those matches though.

Regarding Williams I'm much more confident in what he can offer for the national squad than I was about a month ago - I wouldn't have picked him around that time but I've been impressed watching his progress in the last few Canterbury matches. Fruean's been dynamic this season and I think hes a definite for the squad, and TBH I'd be surprised if Williams isn't named alongside him.

Toeava isn't as consistent as Payne, and with Ranger out injured I think Payne's a good option.

With the halfbacks, I simply think Ellis is an over-rated hack. There aren't any really great options though and I'm sure the ABs selectors will go with Ellis through his experience, though I'd rather see Moa [i.e. pretty much anyone] than Ellis

Disagree with Williams. Fruean should definitely be picked though, I think he's been sensational at times and hasn't been getting the credit for some fantastic moves that he's initiated that Williams has finished off. Williams is too weak in the offload at the moment but again, I suspect the selectors will see things differently.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

The King Country game was dominated by a star turn from former(?) Samoan international Tanner Vili, playing at #12. Also, King Country's #11 (Lolohea Loco?) had a great game, scoring one try in the corner and then claiming the ball at the restart and skipping down the line to score again. At the next restart, he nearly repeated the trick but was belted into touch around the 22. Would have been an incredible hat-trick in less than 3 minutes if he'd finished that one off.

The handling from the King Country #13 was atrocious though. How one can knock the ball on so many times on a warm, dry day is incredible.

 

[Somerset]

Toeava isn't as consistent as Payne, and with Ranger out injured I think Payne's a good option.

With the halfbacks, I simply think Ellis is an over-rated hack. There aren't any really great options though and I'm sure the ABs selectors will go with Ellis through his experience, though I'd rather see Moa than Ellis

Disagree with Williams. Fruean should definitely be picked though, I think he's been sensational at times and hasn't been getting the credit for some fantastic moves that he's initiated that Williams has finished off. Williams is too weak in the offload at the moment but again, I suspect the selectors will see things differently.

I've got no problem with people disagreeing with respect to Williams' selection because I was in the same boat not so long ago. And given some of his early matches in the ITM Cup where he was too keen to offload, pretty raw and was prone to errors, I can absolutely understand that viewpoint. But after watching him play over the course of a few weeks, I've done a 180 and think its worthwhile selecting him based on his performances and potential. If hes shown up to be a complete liability in the end of year tour then that'll be disappointing but at least we've found that out before 2011.

Ellis has had a better season this year but I still don't rate him particularly highly either. Despite his good form hes too flaky for test rugby IMO. As for Toeava, hes a favourite player of mine but I can see your point regarding consistency. Either way I don't think its the right time to reselect him for the ABs - hes a form and confidence player and hes had no rugby to get himself into any sort of rhythm.

 

[Smudge]

Williams is too weak in the offload at the moment

Haha what? You have to be kidding me.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Haha what? You have to be kidding me.

Well, okay, I'll rephrase. He holds on to the ball too often when he should be offloading

 

[Smudge]

Well, okay, I'll rephrase. He holds on to the ball too often when he should be offloading

Again, I still have no idea what you're on about. The criticism, if any, of Williams in his first few games was that he was offloading rather than having a crack himself. How on earth can you claim he holds onto the ball too often when - in his first start - he set up three tries with offloads and has continued to create stunning offload after stunning offload. If he has been holding onto it more in the last game or so, I'd suggest that was a word in the ear from coaches - be it Rob Penney or further up the chain.

 

[Athlai]

****ing hell Southland way to ruin a good season.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I clearly haven't been watching the same games as you. I thought the criticism in his first few games was mainly around his defensive technique and where he was putting the ball in a breakdown/ruck situation. He certainly cost Canterbury the game against Taranaki there, and he hasn't been making so many errors in that area of the game, but typical of trying to discuss rugby with you, if someone has a differing opinion then you go on the attack. I doubt I can trawl through youtube and find any examples as I suspect the SBW fanboys have taken up most of the band width with his excellent finishing of superb Canterbury moves. Personally, I think Fruean has shown an equal level of attacking prowess, but with much less of the inexperience in technique. I have no doubts that Williams can make it, but now isn't the time.

I was at Pukekohe last weekend and there were some Counties fans sitting beside us who were agreeing with each other that Williams should take either Nonu's or Smith's place in the All Blacks as he's better than either of them. That is clearly just total bollocks.

 

[Smudge]

I clearly haven't been watching the same games as you. I thought the criticism in his first few games was mainly around his defensive technique and where he was putting the ball in a breakdown/ruck situation. He certainly cost Canterbury the game against Taranaki there, and he hasn't been making so many errors in that area of the game, but typical of trying to discuss rugby with you, if someone has a differing opinion then you go on the attack. .

His quality on the offload isn't an opinion solely shared by me. Let's see, where should I start?

Otago seemed to have their plan on Saturday afternoon at Carisbrook but their attempts to re-strict him came up short.

The blue-and-yellow brigade more often than not rushed Williams, sending three players at him in double-quick time.

One player went high, one went low and a third slapped at his offloading arm in attempt to dislodge the ball.

But this tactic was simply ineffective for Otago.

Sonny Bill stood as strong as a reinforced concrete statue in the tackle and then sent his go-go-gadget off-loading arms through the mountain of Otago bodies to feed his team-mates.

How to counter the Sonny Bill Williams factor | Stuff.co.nz

Williams has some freakish skills and they should not be reined in.

The purists mightn't like his habit of running with the ball in one hand but no one in the domestic game right now has the ability to free his arms in the tackle like Williams whose offloading skills, a la league, are unique.

Don't put Sonny Bill in a straightjacket | Stuff.co.nz

With an outrageous backflip pass, Sonny Bill Williams did enough to earn an All Black call-up for the end-of-year tour - if that was ever in doubt.

The 25-year-old has been the subject of considerable debate in rugby circles since his arrival here from playing in France. There were many disciples but perhaps just as many who wondered if he could live up to the hype.

He will.

With his first three touches in his first ITM Cup start yesterday, he set up two Canterbury tries and threatened to open the game up with the other. His second offload that gifted lock Luke Romano a try was one to remember.

He received the ball about 12m out, attacked the line and then somehow pulled off an extraordinary backflip despite the attention of two defenders.

In that moment, he might have convinced a few more naysayers. He then followed it up less than 10 minutes later with an incisive run and perfectly-timed pass for Isaac Ross to score.

Rugby: SBW lives up to the hype in starring role - Sport - NZ Herald News

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Yeah - bravo. Relying on the same press who were still bigging him up when he cost Canterbury the game against Taranaki:

Sonny Bill Williams a sure All Blacks bet | Stuff.co.nz

And when he nearly cost them the game against Northland:

Sonny Bill Williams keeps getting better | Stuff.co.nz

The summary of the Northland game is even more incredible that SBW himself didn't rate his game, yet the press didn't even mention his mistakes. However, they do try and pass off all three tries in that game as being created by him when in at least two of the three (as I recall) he was only one of the cogs in well worked team moves.

Those articles use words like 'ubiquitous' and 'league style' for his offloads. Sure, sometimes those moves pay off - and maybe players in the ITM Cup aren't the best for reading some of these little bits of trickery that SBW has but the next time one of these tricks gifts an intercept try to some opposition, do you want it to be in an All Blacks jersey? Would we be talking about selecting him if he was a previously unheard of player taking up Union with these performances? I suspect the concensus would be towards seeing how he performs at Super 15 level.

Look, I'm happy to concede that he's improved as the season's gone on, but only a month ago Rob Penney dropped him to the bench and yet the NZ press criticised the decision, despite it having done him quite a bit of good in hindsight. The guy hasn't been tested against top quality opposition (let's see how his defense holds up against Super 15 sides, maybe) yet has still shown frailties and the fact he's lacking some technique and experience in Union.

Fruean should be ahead of Williams. I have no doubt that Williams has been getting some of the credit for some of Fruean's play. I forget which match it was, but Fruean set up Williams to finish under the posts with a line break, yet the press the next day was all about how Williams scored the decisive try when that try was all down to the line breaking prowess and superb passing of Fruean.

 

[Somerset]

Squad just announced. No Fruean with Toeava taking his place - thats a big surprise and IMO very harsh to exclude Fruean. I managed to tip Braid's selection but didn't think Liam Messam would be included at the expense of Victor Vito, although I don't mind that selection. The final major shock is no Israel Dagg (and to a lesser extent Rene Ranger) - Hosea Gear takes his place.

Edit: Just noticed Donald's in for Cruden. Somewhat defeats the purpose of investing in Cruden but TBH I'm more confident in Donald than I am in Cruden so like the decision to include Messam over Vito I'm not unhappy about that call.

Edit again: Reportedly Dagg's injured so excuse my initial suprise at his exclusion.

 

[Hurricane]

I am not sold on Toeava

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Toeava is a good player when healthy (which seems to be never.)

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Toeava after only two games back over an in form and fit Fruean is a little odd. Not surprised Vito got dropped as he didn't impress against Australia in his last outing. Don't think Messam has really been at his best this year though. Fruean should be absolutely gutted, I reckon. He'll be keeping his fingers crossed for a injury to occur, I suppose.

 

[Flem274*]

Got steamrolled by Wellington again. Real bogey team for us.

 

[Smudge]

Yeah - bravo. Relying on the same press who were still bigging him up when he cost Canterbury the game against Taranaki:

Sonny Bill Williams a sure All Blacks bet | Stuff.co.nz

And when he nearly cost them the game against Northland:

Sonny Bill Williams keeps getting better | Stuff.co.nz

The summary of the Northland game is even more incredible that SBW himself didn't rate his game, yet the press didn't even mention his mistakes. However, they do try and pass off all three tries in that game as being created by him when in at least two of the three (as I recall) he was only one of the cogs in well worked team moves.

Those articles use words like 'ubiquitous' and 'league style' for his offloads. Sure, sometimes those moves pay off - and maybe players in the ITM Cup aren't the best for reading some of these little bits of trickery that SBW has but the next time one of these tricks gifts an intercept try to some opposition, do you want it to be in an All Blacks jersey? Would we be talking about selecting him if he was a previously unheard of player taking up Union with these performances? I suspect the concensus would be towards seeing how he performs at Super 15 level.

Look, I'm happy to concede that he's improved as the season's gone on, but only a month ago Rob Penney dropped him to the bench and yet the NZ press criticised the decision, despite it having done him quite a bit of good in hindsight. The guy hasn't been tested against top quality opposition (let's see how his defense holds up against Super 15 sides, maybe) yet has still shown frailties and the fact he's lacking some technique and experience in Union.

Fruean should be ahead of Williams. I have no doubt that Williams has been getting some of the credit for some of Fruean's play. I forget which match it was, but Fruean set up Williams to finish under the posts with a line break, yet the press the next day was all about how Williams scored the decisive try when that try was all down to the line breaking prowess and superb passing of Fruean.

I'll go with the All Blacks selectors as my guide.

kthnxbye.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I'll go with the All Blacks selectors as my guide.

kthnxbye.

Get your own opinion, ****!