Is Tendulkar's career now "complete"?

[robelinda]

I dont see no Viv...

:-)

 

[Bun]

Wait a sec, you're talking about Ponting, I thought you meant Tendulkar. I said Marsh thinks Ponting was a better teenage batsman than Tendulkar. By the time Ponting arrived, he'd already had seen Tendulkar. Tendulkar, btw, debuted at almost 17 years of age. And anyway, who cares, let's say Ponting would debut 1 year later than Tendulkar. Does it matter? By 17 he was debuting for Tasmania in Sheffield Shield cricket. He averaged almost 50 in his first year and, as aforesaid, the standard in cricket in Australia at that time was very high. He was already in the top handful of batsmen in the country. He didn't debut until 3 years later though after he had shellacked the bowlers in that league.

Lol @ the lies.

Ponting turned 18 during his first season in FC<

He averaged 46 and not 50 in his first season.

Averaging 46, 48 aren't exactly what I'd call shellacking the bowlers in the country.

To put things into perspective, Tendulkar averaged over 50 in his first tour in Australia, at the ripe age of 18, the same age as Ponting when he debuted in FC, against international quality Australian bowlers, not FC quality, and did better than him.

 

[Sanz]

The year when Tendulkar made his International Debut :-

Wisden Alamanck :-

"...sixteen-year-old Sachin Tendulkar showed that age is no consideration in Test cricket when a batsman is brimming with talent. The third-youngest Test cricketer, and the youngest Indian, he made runs at critical stages to bolster a fiercely motivated side playing under a new captain in Krish Srikkanth...."

2nd Test

"....The first four wickets fell in the space of 33 runs, and it was only in the course of the 143-run stand between Manjrekar and Tendulkar (165 balls) that India showed any sign of having the measure of the Pakistani attack...."

Final Test :-

".... But on the afternoon of the fourth day the match sprang to life when Akram and Imran reduced India to 38 for four. They were rescued by Sidhu and Tendulkar, who stood firm in a century stand, even though the youngster was bounced repeatedly by the Pakistan pacemen. At one stage umpire Holder had to warn Akram for intimidatory bowling. Tendulkar batted for three and a quarter hours for his second fifty of the series...."

First Tour of England, 1990 :-

"....after the senior batsmen had displayed the same lack of commitment on the final day at Old Trafford that Sachin Tendulkar completed his conquest of English hearts, saving his side from defeat and scoring the sixth century of the match en route. There should be many more Test hundreds for Tendulkar; what made his first so special were the circumstances in which he made it, as a seventeen-year-old coming to the rescue of his country. Yet those who had seen him stand up to a barrage of bouncers from the Pakistani fast bowlers at Sialkot the previous winter would have had no doubts about his genius, or his capacity to set an example to colleagues old enough to be father figures...."

2nd Test @ Manchester :-

"...Of the six individual centuries scored in this fascinating contest, none was more outstanding than Tendulkar's, which rescued India on the final afternoon. At 17 years and 112 days, he was only 30 days older than Mushtaq Mohammad was when, against India at Delhi in 1960-61, he became the youngest player to score a Test hundred, More significantly, after several of his colleagues had fallen to reckless strokes, Tendulkar held the England attack at bay with a disciplined display of immense maturity. ....."


On his First Century :-

"....Tendulkar remained undefeated on 119, having batted for 224 minutes and hit seventeen fours. He looked the embodiment of India's famous opener, Gavaskar, and indeed was wearing a pair of his pads. While he displayed a full repertoire of strokes in compiling his maiden Test hundred, most remarkable were his off-side shots from the back foot. Though only 5ft 5in tall, he was still able to control without difficulty short deliveries from the English paceman....."


I watched all those games

 

[akilana]

Ponting is poor man's Sachin.

 

[Spark]

Here is another example of why citing a large gap in international hundreds as proof of significant superiority is flawed

Batting records | Combined Test, ODI and T20I records | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

This is the end of the Aus 07-08 season. Ponting has 60 international hundreds, Tendulkar has 81. At the time, who would I have called the greater batsman? Ponting. Have I changed my view since? Yes. Would a lot of people have agreed with me at the time? Yes. Yet Tendulkar has 21 more hundreds. So it's not even inarguable that Tendulkar is the best, let alone that he is significantly better - at the time. So what does that tell you about the "he has many more hundreds" argument? It tells me that it isn't that significant, after all, a lot of quite good players have less than 21 international hundreds.

Ahem.

 

[GotSpin]

Ponting is poor man's Sachin.

Because Sachin is just so incredibly far ahead of Ponting. No wonder these debates start

 

[abmk]

If you're talking about the 2-3 years after he debuted..then no he wasn't. It wasn't until his England series in 93 that he really pushed on. Before that he showed glimpses but was averaging in the 30s for the first 3 years of his career. Which was fine considering his age, but not near amongst the best batsmen in the world at that time.

Read:

The year when Tendulkar made his International Debut :-

Wisden Alamanck :-

"...sixteen-year-old Sachin Tendulkar showed that age is no consideration in Test cricket when a batsman is brimming with talent. The third-youngest Test cricketer, and the youngest Indian, he made runs at critical stages to bolster a fiercely motivated side playing under a new captain in Krish Srikkanth...."

2nd Test

"....The first four wickets fell in the space of 33 runs, and it was only in the course of the 143-run stand between Manjrekar and Tendulkar (165 balls) that India showed any sign of having the measure of the Pakistani attack...."

Final Test :-

".... But on the afternoon of the fourth day the match sprang to life when Akram and Imran reduced India to 38 for four. They were rescued by Sidhu and Tendulkar, who stood firm in a century stand, even though the youngster was bounced repeatedly by the Pakistan pacemen. At one stage umpire Holder had to warn Akram for intimidatory bowling. Tendulkar batted for three and a quarter hours for his second fifty of the series...."

First Tour of England, 1990 :-

"....after the senior batsmen had displayed the same lack of commitment on the final day at Old Trafford that Sachin Tendulkar completed his conquest of English hearts, saving his side from defeat and scoring the sixth century of the match en route. There should be many more Test hundreds for Tendulkar; what made his first so special were the circumstances in which he made it, as a seventeen-year-old coming to the rescue of his country. Yet those who had seen him stand up to a barrage of bouncers from the Pakistani fast bowlers at Sialkot the previous winter would have had no doubts about his genius, or his capacity to set an example to colleagues old enough to be father figures...."

2nd Test @ Manchester :-

"...Of the six individual centuries scored in this fascinating contest, none was more outstanding than Tendulkar's, which rescued India on the final afternoon. At 17 years and 112 days, he was only 30 days older than Mushtaq Mohammad was when, against India at Delhi in 1960-61, he became the youngest player to score a Test hundred, More significantly, after several of his colleagues had fallen to reckless strokes, Tendulkar held the England attack at bay with a disciplined display of immense maturity. ....."


On his First Century :-

"....Tendulkar remained undefeated on 119, having batted for 224 minutes and hit seventeen fours. He looked the embodiment of India's famous opener, Gavaskar, and indeed was wearing a pair of his pads. While he displayed a full repertoire of strokes in compiling his maiden Test hundred, most remarkable were his off-side shots from the back foot. Though only 5ft 5in tall, he was still able to control without difficulty short deliveries from the English paceman....."


I watched all those games

I'll add these:

sydney 148 - youngest foreign player to score a century in Australia ( think its still a record )

perth 114 - arguably his finest innings ever . On a fast , boncy track in Perth when others were falling around him, he was at ease.

johannesberg 111 - brilliant innings against Allan Donald and co ( Donald was on fire in that test ) on a track that was not easy to bat on ...

all of them before the England tour of India in 93. He had played enough special innings and had a pretty decent average till then . You could easily make a case that he was in the top 10 batsmen in the world at that time

 

[abmk]

Not really. This is one of the best discussions going on CW for quite some time now. The quality of posts has been generally good. I still think abmk does a fine job (although would like to see him post more) of arguing his points.

Ikki of course a one man army .

Good job guys

Thanks man . I post at other places too, that's why don't post too much here

It would be impressive indeed given the workload that Tendulkar has had to bear over the years. However there must be batsmen over the years whose average was increasing over the last few years of their careers won't there???

Gooch is one that comes to mind. can't really think of others right now really !

 

[abmk]

No, spinners aren't rarer than middle-order batsmen.

yes, they are , its elementary cricket. By god, do I really have to elaborate on this ?

That's not the point. All-time great spinners like Warne are much more rare than all-time middle-order batsmen.

Read above ...Direct result of that ...

Well, you might as well call bowlers batsmen because technically they are that too.

oh jeez, we are comparing bowlers of near equal calibre here. Are there bowlers who are of the same calibre as ATG batsmen as far as batting is concerned ?

Spinners are a completely different breed of bowler. Even if you want to compare them with fast bowlers you have to take into account the fact that they bowl more, often at more settled batsmen and are probably more reliant on the pitch conditions than fast bowlers. Even though bowlers like Murali or Warne will be a bit more expensive or slower to strike, they are invaluable in the sense that they can bowl for a long time and pick up big hauls of wickets. Just look at Warne's, and to an even greater extent Murali's, 4w/5w/10w hauls compared to great fast bowlers. The fact that their stats are so close to all-time great fast bowlers is what sets them apart from other spinners. Especially since they were so good even away from home (In Warne's case he was even better away than at home) They are quite incredible. There are very few spinners you could genuinely use as strike-bowlers to rival fast bowlers.

I'm not comparing strictly average wise. We know spinners have to bowl more on flatter tracks , the going is tough for the bowlers. macko, ambrose , garner etc avg about 5 points lesser than warne and I'm not calling them heads and shoulders above him, am I ? All I am saying is quality wise, some are slightly better, some about equal, some slightly worse , but there are quite a few of them

All I am saying is quality wise among the bowlers, warne stands out lesser when compared to Sachin in batsmen ( minus Bradman ) , his record is more incomplete and quite frankly, against the very best, he was found wanting many times

Celebrate his genius at the art of leg-spin as much as you want, but quality-wise as a bowler , it isn't that rosy a picture as you like to put it for warne.

Why is the period after relevant? We're talking about the period he didn't score a century in ODIs. No matter how you want to paint it, 0 in 78 tries shows he started very slowly in ODIs. It's not to denigrate him, as he is one of the top 3 ODI batsman of all-time in my eyes; but the point was that even exceptional talents may take time to adjust.

yes, just goes to show centuries from middle-order batsmen were rarer in the period in which he played his first 70 ODIs than in the immediate period afterwards,

as far as slow start is concerned, read again,

He did start off slowly in ODIs , esp. when compared to tests, but just looking at centuries is not the way to go about it ....

 

[abmk]

Ponting is poor man's Sachin.

Because Sachin is just so incredibly far ahead of Ponting. No wonder these debates start

pretty sure that was just an attempt at baiting. Well, one fell into the trap !

 

[GotSpin]

pretty sure that was just an attempt at baiting. Well, one fell into the trap !

Yeah well if you want to see some good trolling and provocative posting I can more than do so

 

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah well if you want to see some good trolling and provocative posting I can more than do so

Don't try any harder than you already are to turn this into a pissing contest.

 

[GotSpin]

Don't try any harder than you already are to turn this into a pissing contest.

Don't see how I have been. I brought up a legitimate point about 10 pages ago and it's unravelled since. Thanks for the useful contribution though

 

[Jono]

****, was genuinely interested in trying to discuss what Sachin should do from now, and what is best for the Indian cricket team. Because Sachin playing on in ODIs isn't necessarily the best thing for the Indian team. It may or may not be.

But no, we get this ****. Absolute mess. And it's the usual suspects too.

The opening post has absolutely nothing to do with whether Ponting could have debuted at 16 and scored 99 international tons or not.

Pathetic. If you think Ponting is better or equal to Sachin head to the Ponting vs. Sachin thread FFS.

 

[GotSpin]

****, was genuinely interested in trying to discuss what Sachin should do from now, and what is best for the Indian cricket team. Because Sachin playing on in ODIs isn't necessarily the best thing for the Indian team. It may or may not be.

But no, we get this ****. Absolute mess. And it's the usual suspects too.

The opening post has absolutely nothing to do with whether Ponting could have debuted at 16 and scored 99 test tons or not.

Pathetic. If you think Ponting is better or equal to Sachin head to the Ponting vs. Sachin thread FFS.

That'd be pretty impressive

 

[Jono]

*shakes fist*

 

[honestbharani]

****, was genuinely interested in trying to discuss what Sachin should do from now, and what is best for the Indian cricket team. Because Sachin playing on in ODIs isn't necessarily the best thing for the Indian team. It may or may not be.

But no, we get this ****. Absolute mess. And it's the usual suspects too.

The opening post has absolutely nothing to do with whether Ponting could have debuted at 16 and scored 99 international tons or not.

Pathetic. If you think Ponting is better or equal to Sachin head to the Ponting vs. Sachin thread FFS.

yeah, I don't see why he intends to continue playing, tbh.. Unless he has his sights on 50 ODI tons, and probably quit over the next year or so... I would still like to see us go with a relatively light on experience side to the Windies, both in tests and ODIs. We will see if the pretenders can be the real deal or not..

 

[Jono]

Yeah I love Sachin, and if he wants to go on playing I'm not going to hate him for it, but I would love to see some of the young guys get a go in the ODIs now. They've already been having a shot in some matches, but I mean over a 6 month period to show what they've got.

That being said, if he plays on in ODIs I am going to be able to see him play ODI cricket in England when I'm there and then in Australia as well. Hell yeah

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah I love Sachin, and if he wants to go on playing I'm not going to hate him for it, but I would love to see some of the young guys get a go in the ODIs now. They've already been having a shot in some matches, but I mean over a 6 month period to show what they've got.

That being said, if he plays on in ODIs I am going to be able to see him play ODI cricket in England when I'm there and then in Australia as well. Hell yeah

win-win



On another note, I think Dhoni should be rested from the entire Windies tour.. He has been playing a LOT.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Look, I've tried to go through and merge all the posts that revolve around it into the Ponting vs Tendulkar thread, however there were too many and I can't be bothered to go back and do it in smaller amounts.

Keep the discussion to Sachin, his career and what he has to achieve. Don't turn it into a comparison again.