Is Steyn as deadly as Lillee?

[Teja.]

Gotta say, never rated Kapil Dev at all. Never impressed me a whole lot, i know thats bad!!!! Always rated Imran ahead of all the all rounders at the time ( Botham, Hadlee etc). I'm probably all wrong but i always thought of Kapil as a poor mans Imran.

That wouldn't really be wrong tbf. Kapil was a couple of classes lower as a bowler and negligibly worse as a batsman, IMHO.

 

[TT Boy]

Its hard to see how the wickets when England toured in 2008 were roads to be honest, and I would say the same about some of the wickets Pakistan played on. Im sure there were some roads in the India series and the WI series though.

They all produced positive results but that was more through awful batting on both sides. NZ nearly scored 500 in the 4th innings at Napier and Hamilton was entirely flat which made England's 100 odd all out even more ridiculous. Wellington was a good wicket mind, good pace and carry. Produced an excellent wicket last year as well where Pak bowled out NZ for 99.

 

[ankitj]

Kapil Dev was way too inconsistent and that reflects in his overall averages. But he had the ability of producing match turning performances with both bat and ball. A testimony to that is the fact that other than Botham, Kapil is the only cricketer to feature in Wisden's best 100 batting as well as bowling performances.

 

[Hit Wicket]

Kapil's bowling abilities were obviously compromised after his knee surgery in the mid 80s, but before that he was a superb bowler, a lot of which has been well documented. But one tidbit missing is that after seeing how poorly his spinners bowled at an underprepared Ahmedabad track in '83, he bowled 30 overs on the trot to take 9/83. It was this kind of workload which messed up hie bowling career.

But for me it was Kapil the batsman who outshines all 4 all rounders. Botham has the superior overall record, but he could hardly make a meaningful contribution against WI ever. Kapil used to bring his pull, hooks, and drives to take the game to WI always.

Within a space of one year, Kapil played 4 innings which were superlative. He scored 89 off 55 deliveries from Botham and Willis despite refusing numerous singles to shield the tail at Lords, scored 97 off 93 at the Oval to win the Man of the series award ahead of Botham in their head to head clash. Then moving over to the WI, he scored a faster than run a ball hundred at Port of Spain against the best fast bowling attack ever assembled - Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, and almost repeated the feat a couple of weeks later at Antigua getting out for 97. In the meanwhile he scored a 70 odd from 30 deliveries to win the first ODI against the WI and of course a few months later the 175*.

Imran might have been the more technically correct, and Botham the more consistent, but Kapil in full flow with the willow was in a class of his own, for he could destroy world class attacks. He was definitely a better batsman than Imran - no matter what stats guru says.

 

[Cevno]

I dunno. Somewhere with Botham after Imran, Sobers, Miller, Hadlee, Kallis and Pollock and Murali but before Gavaskar, Chappell, McG, Tendulkar, Akram et al.

Kapil's extraordinariness lies in his fitness and his ability to bowl and bat for so long at a good level without any significant lows or injuries, if at a lesser level of greatness than some other all-rounders but with much better fitness. Unfortunately my assesment of player's greatness does not take fitness thaat much into account unless in freak cases like Bond and Asif.

But in terms of "value added" he was the only fast bowler India had for a long time except some real real poor ones.

He opened the bowling for India in every match of his career and played a crucial role with the bat in tough situations.

Also unlike Imran had no support from the other end and had a ordinary batting lineup barring Gavaskar to boot.
Also Indian pitches were very flat for Pace bowlers in the 80's and even 90's and it required incredible stamina and fitenss to remain fit on those dry pitches and heat for 16 years as Kapil Dev did.
Was a world cup winning captain to boot too.
His record deteriorated somewhat in his last 2 years as he played too long.

His impact and value added to Indian cricket was maybe infact more than Imran's to Pakistan cricket(Who had fazal mahmood before him) and a bunch of fast bowlers to support him in sarfaraz plus wasim,waqar etc... later on.
Kapil had to open the bowling with Sunil Gavaskar once.
Even though Imran was a better captain.

As overall cricketers I would have Imran ahead of Kapil,but in terms of overall value added i would have kapil ahead in their teams.

 

[Teja.]

Kapil's bowling abilities were obviously compromised after his knee surgery in the mid 80s, but before that he was a superb bowler, a lot of which has been well documented. But one tidbit missing is that after seeing how poorly his spinners bowled at an underprepared Ahmedabad track in '83, he bowled 30 overs on the trot to take 9/83. It was this kind of workload which messed up hie bowling career.

He had a knee injury going into the game too, according to Sunny Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins IIRC. Considering the batting line-up, the pitch and his support, It has to be one of the top 10 bowling performances of all-time.

 

[Cevno]

Kapil's bowling abilities were obviously compromised after his knee surgery in the mid 80s, but before that he was a superb bowler, a lot of which has been well documented. But one tidbit missing is that after seeing how poorly his spinners bowled at an underprepared Ahmedabad track in '83, he bowled 30 overs on the trot to take 9/83. It was this kind of workload which messed up hie bowling career.

But for me it was Kapil the batsman who outshines all 4 all rounders. Botham has the superior overall record, but he could hardly make a meaningful contribution against WI ever. Kapil used to bring his pull, hooks, and drives to take the game to WI always.

Within a space of one year, Kapil played 4 innings which were superlative. He scored 89 off 55 deliveries from Botham and Willis despite refusing numerous singles to shield the tail at Lords, scored 97 off 93 at the Oval to win the Man of the series award ahead of Botham in their head to head clash. Then moving over to the WI, he scored a faster than run a ball hundred at Port of Spain against the best fast bowling attack ever assembled - Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, and almost repeated the feat a couple of weeks later at Antigua getting out for 97. In the meanwhile he scored a 70 odd from 30 deliveries to win the first ODI against the WI and of course a few months later the 175*.

Imran might have been the more technically correct, and Botham the more consistent, but Kapil in full flow with the willow was in a class of his own, for he could destroy world class attacks. He was definitely a better batsman than Imran - no matter what stats guru says.

Awta.

Imran though became a equally good batsmen towards the end of his career,maybe even better.

 

[Teja.]

But in terms of "value added" he was the only fast bowler India had for a long time except some real real poor ones.

He opened the bowling for India in every match of his career and played a crucial role with the bat in tough situations.

Also unlike Imran had no support from the other end and had a ordinary batting lineup barring Gavaskar to boot.
Also Indian pitches were very flat for Pace bowlers in the 80's and even 90's and it required incredible stamina and fitenss to remain fit on those dry pitches and heat for 16 years as Kapil Dev did.
Was a world cup winning captain to boot too.
His record deteriorated somewhat in his last 2 years as he played too long.

His impact and value added to Indian cricket was maybe infact more than Imran's to Pakistan cricket(Who had fazal mahmood before him) and a bunch of fast bowlers to support him in sarfaraz plus wasim,waqar etc... later on.
Kapil had to open the bowling with Sunil Gavaskar once.
Even though Imran was a better captain.

As overall cricketers I would have Imran ahead of Kapil,but in terms of overall value added i would have kapil ahead in their teams.

Not value added to their teams, The value they add as cricketers in general. Obv. Cricketers playing in weaker teams benefit you if you consider it your way. If I had to place Kapil or Imran in a hypothetical new team, It's not too much of a question who is a more valuable cricketer.

 

[robelinda]

I do however rate Kapil above Hadlee easily, and only just ahead of Botham as all rounders.

Some great posts in the last hour guys!

 

[Cevno]

He had a knee injury going into the game too, according to Sunny Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins IIRC. Considering the batting line-up, the pitch and his support, It has to be one of the top 10 bowling performances of all-time.

Yep.

The Kind of sheer Workload he went through his career was phenomenal.

Not only he had a substantially longer career than the Imran,Botham and Hadlee plus more matches ,he also outlasted almost all batsmen let alone bowlers of the era.

That too being the only fast bowler for India ,on non assisting surfaces in real heat opening the bowling throughout his career. What a athlete he was.

 

[vcs]

We never get credit for preparing bowling friendly tracks. Other than for SSC, all other SL grounds are unkind for batsmen. Especially Dambulla.

AWTA. SL tracks are gun.

 

[vcs]

Kapil's bowling abilities were obviously compromised after his knee surgery in the mid 80s, but before that he was a superb bowler, a lot of which has been well documented. But one tidbit missing is that after seeing how poorly his spinners bowled at an underprepared Ahmedabad track in '83, he bowled 30 overs on the trot to take 9/83. It was this kind of workload which messed up hie bowling career.

But for me it was Kapil the batsman who outshines all 4 all rounders. Botham has the superior overall record, but he could hardly make a meaningful contribution against WI ever. Kapil used to bring his pull, hooks, and drives to take the game to WI always.

Within a space of one year, Kapil played 4 innings which were superlative. He scored 89 off 55 deliveries from Botham and Willis despite refusing numerous singles to shield the tail at Lords, scored 97 off 93 at the Oval to win the Man of the series award ahead of Botham in their head to head clash. Then moving over to the WI, he scored a faster than run a ball hundred at Port of Spain against the best fast bowling attack ever assembled - Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, and almost repeated the feat a couple of weeks later at Antigua getting out for 97. In the meanwhile he scored a 70 odd from 30 deliveries to win the first ODI against the WI and of course a few months later the 175*.

Imran might have been the more technically correct, and Botham the more consistent, but Kapil in full flow with the willow was in a class of his own, for he could destroy world class attacks. He was definitely a better batsman than Imran - no matter what stats guru says.

Agree with that.

 

[Leg Cutter]

WOooOw
What a responce from you guys..Just Joined the FORUM last night..and when i woke up 91 comments on my thread... Go Ahead Cricket Lovers...

The Best Game In This World Is Cricket

 

[Leg Cutter]

YouTube - The Empire of Cricket - Australia : Dennis Lillee & Jeff Thomson

Look at this serious pace bowling from lille and thomson .. Omg no reaction time for batsmen

 

[marc71178]

Too bad Lillee didn't even hang around to find out which was the best side of his era - sold his soul to Packer.

Yeah, I mean how dare he try to make a living out of his ability?

 

[GotSpin]

Oh, add Bevan too.

Or some just continue on Anti-Australian crusades. Either way though obviously

 

[ankitj]

Imran might have been the more technically correct, and Botham the more consistent, but Kapil in full flow with the willow was in a class of his own, for he could destroy world class attacks. He was definitely a better batsman than Imran - no matter what stats guru says.

Will say Botham had superior technique. Was superbly balanced both on back and front foot. But he wasn't consistent enough finishing with an average in early 30's despite scoring 14 centuries. Imran on the other hand was more watchful, patient and intelligent batsman. He didn't seem to have enough time to play his strokes though. Wasn't as naturally gifted.

On natural batting ability, Botham > Kapil > Imran > Hadlee (haven't seen much of Hadlee's battibng though.

 

[Burgey]

Lillee did not play in the subcontinent because he chose not to - he preferred playing for Packer. And he played the series in Pakistan in 1980, hardly at the end of his career. He also played a test in WI in 1972 - but I guess that was too early for the strapping lad?

I agree the sample is not large enough but don't give lame excuses like above. But more importantly why have you not said a single word in defense of Steyn's supposed lack of competition which is clearly beyond his control?

Australia didn't go to India while WSC was in. Not sure if they went to Pakistan at that time, though of course Imran wouldn't have been there cos he had sold out to Packer as well .

Lillee played that test in the WI in the early 70s with a stress fracture in his back mate. Was the catalyst for his breaking down and subsequent come back from what had previously been a career ending-type of injury.

 

[smash84]

Haven't seen that series. The first test was low-scoring :

225,292,140,76/3

second and third tests were high scoring

imran played in the 1st and 3rd tests

2/28 in the first innings of the 1st test
2/86 in the first innings of the 3rd test and 2/30 in the 2nd innings

that's 6 wickets @ 24 !

That is top notch stuff given the conditions of the pitches.

No doubt Imran was a magnificent bowler, criminally underrated. I would have him so far ahead of Kallis as the best all rounder ever.

I would agree. PEWS might not though.

But in terms of "value added" he was the only fast bowler India had for a long time except some real real poor ones.

He opened the bowling for India in every match of his career and played a crucial role with the bat in tough situations.

Also unlike Imran had no support from the other end and had a ordinary batting lineup barring Gavaskar to boot.
Also Indian pitches were very flat for Pace bowlers in the 80's and even 90's and it required incredible stamina and fitenss to remain fit on those dry pitches and heat for 16 years as Kapil Dev did.
Was a world cup winning captain to boot too.
His record deteriorated somewhat in his last 2 years as he played too long.

His impact and value added to Indian cricket was maybe infact more than Imran's to Pakistan cricket(Who had fazal mahmood before him) and a bunch of fast bowlers to support him in sarfaraz plus wasim,waqar etc... later on.
Kapil had to open the bowling with Sunil Gavaskar once.
Even though Imran was a better captain.

As overall cricketers I would have Imran ahead of Kapil,but in terms of overall value added i would have kapil ahead in their teams.

In terms of impact on cricket in their respective countries is concerned I would rate Imran far far above Kapil. Imran inspired generations of Pakistanis to bowl fast. I would say that Gavaskar and Tendulkar have had more impact in India with youngsters wanting to bat like them. The impact of Imran on Pakistan cricket is incalculable and he was the first one who really made Pakistan believe in themselves.

Will say Botham had superior technique. Was superbly balanced both on back and front foot. But he wasn't consistent enough finishing with an average in early 30's despite scoring 14 centuries. Imran on the other hand was more watchful, patient and intelligent batsman. He didn't seem to have enough time to play his strokes though. Wasn't as naturally gifted.

On natural batting ability, Botham > Kapil > Imran > Hadlee (haven't seen much of Hadlee's battibng though.

Agreed. On natural bowling ability Hadlee >= Imran > Kapil > Botham

 

[weldone]

Will say Botham had superior technique. Was superbly balanced both on back and front foot. But he wasn't consistent enough finishing with an average in early 30's despite scoring 14 centuries. Imran on the other hand was more watchful, patient and intelligent batsman. He didn't seem to have enough time to play his strokes though. Wasn't as naturally gifted.

On natural batting ability, Botham > Kapil > Imran > Hadlee

awta