Is spin bowling a dying art in modern day cricket?

[pup11]

White would without doubt be the best option for Australia if he can improve his bowling, but as things stand atm White has decided to neglect his bowling and concentrate on his batting.

 

[Richard]

I think that is silly logic really - assuming that someone won't be good based purely on the fact that another good player has just retired and there have historically been gaps in the process.

The chance of a good spinning emerging now is the same chance it would be at any time. You spoke yourself about it being ludicrous to suggest that a country's spin stocks will continue to follow time patterns over history. As you said, "The whole point of a good bowler, and a wristspinner more than anything, is that you can play them as well as you want, they'll still get good figures." - well, it doesn't matter that Warne has just retired, or that there are typically gaps in the process, if Bailey is a good bowler, he will get good figures. The likelihood of him being a good bowler isn't any less just because Warne just retired, nor is the likelihood of a good bowler coming through.

Now, I highly doubt you've seen Bailey bowl, so you've instead decided to judge him based on his figures and some historical patterns. No-one could possibly say he is test standard right now, but no-one, without seeing him bowl, should be able to make sweeping claims about Australian spinners based on the history of how often they come along or the likes. It'd be like going to the Rashid thread and saying it's highly unlikely that he'll be any good purely based on the fact that he's English and England haven't produced any good wrist spinners at all. The fact that his English really has no bearing on how good a bowler he is (*cues BLE*).

I've seen Bailey bowl a few times - he looks pretty good to me in his action and his approach. Obviously he is not test standard at this stage, however he doesn't have anything intrinsically wrong with him or his action to suggest he can't develop into a test standard bowler, and unlike in England when things so often go incredibly wrong with potentially good bowlers who eventuate into rubbish, the Australian system generally works in a way to get the most of a bowler like Bailey providing he has the right attitude and doesn't have any technical faults. He struggles with consistency game-to-game which is one thing that generally always improves with young bowlers (in Australia anyway) and he certainly needs to develop a quicker, flatter delivery or work a bit more sideways drift in the air into his bowling to stop batsman coming down the track to him with such confidence. To say he is test standard now would be ludicrous, but to make a judgement on a young bowler in development, whom no-one is claiming to be test standard now, without even watching him bowl is equally ludicrous, IMO.

Right, you've convinced me - I'll wait a few more seasons before I trash Bailey once more.

I still don't think Casson, Cullen or Hauritz have a chance, though (and aside from the middle I can't think of many Australians who do either).

 

[Prince EWS]

Right, you've convinced me - I'll wait a few more seasons before I trash Bailey once more.

I still don't think Casson, Cullen or Hauritz have a chance, though (and aside from the middle I can't think of many Australians who do either).

As far as test cricket goes, I absolutely agree with you there. All three are distinctly average and will be lucky to forge good first class careers. Cullen and even Hauritz to some degree though have potential in one day cricket. Personally I think Cullen is reasonably close to being ODI standard as it is and given the rate of his improvement in that format in the last two seasons, I do think he'll be at least servicable in one day cricket for Australia. Hauritz is another story in the fact that I've never really rated him, but he has improved a lot of late.

Bailey is a completely different (in terms of test cricket) in the fact that it's just too early to tell. From what I've seen though, it'd be quite foolish to rule him out from being a test standard bowler, especially based on something like patterns of gaps between spinners.

 

[pup11]

All the upcoming Aussie spinners are in their early 20's that certainly isn't the best time to judge a spinner (unless your name is Shane Warne or Muralitharan).



I think the Aussie spinners could improve and evolve in a few years time.


But for that they would have to stay away from that Terry Jenner.

 

[Richard]

It's perfectly possible to judge a spinner in their early 20s. Some you can tell almost instantly that they're never going to amount to much. The Beau Cassons of this World aren't taken seriously by... well, anyone with a genuine and not hopelessly-over-optimistic take on the matter.

One or two of the young spinners are said by the Fullers and Cribbs of this World to have potential, however... and that also says something.

 

[chaminda_00]

As far as test cricket goes, I absolutely agree with you there. All three are distinctly average and will be lucky to forge good first class careers. Cullen and even Hauritz to some degree though have potential in one day cricket. Personally I think Cullen is reasonably close to being ODI standard as it is and given the rate of his improvement in that format in the last two seasons, I do think he'll be at least servicable in one day cricket for Australia. Hauritz is another story in the fact that I've never really rated him, but he has improved a lot of late.

Bailey is a completely different (in terms of test cricket) in the fact that it's just too early to tell. From what I've seen though, it'd be quite foolish to rule him out from being a test standard bowler, especially based on something like patterns of gaps between spinners.

Going by last season performances in One Day Cricket, if anything Cullen has gone backwards. For me he was similar to Hauritz the season after he played ODIs and Test Cricket. He was pretty average last season and lost his natural game, trying to bowl too defensive.

But i do agree with you he has the potential to be servicable in ODIs, as do a few other Australian spinners. An average of 30odd is pretty good in OD domestic cricket in Australia, for a spinner or seamer.

But the real question is will anyone be able play a servicable role in Test Cricket, i haven't really seen anything from Bailey or other to suggest they will TBH. But Bailey only played a handful of matches, Doran never gets a bowl and Heal showed he can get something out of pitches that turn, as did Casson two seasons and like Doran never got a bowl last season.

 

[Prince EWS]

Going by last season performances in One Day Cricket, if anything Cullen has gone backwards. For me he was similar to Hauritz the season after he played ODIs and Test Cricket. He was pretty average last season and lost his natural game, trying to bowl too defensive.

But i do agree with you he has the potential to be servicable in ODIs, as do a few other Australian spinners. An average of 30odd is pretty good in OD domestic cricket in Australia, for a spinner or seamer.

But the real question is will anyone be able play a servicable role in Test Cricket, i haven't really seen anything from Bailey or other to suggest they will TBH. But Bailey only played a handful of matches, Doran never gets a bowl and Heal showed he can get something out of pitches that turn, as did Casson two seasons and like Doran never got a bowl last season.

I think Cullen just had more respect from the batsmen last season and hence they played out his spell. In his first season, batsmen saw an opportunity to attack him, so while he took a few wickets, he went for some runs as well. In his second season, IMO his bowling actually improved (especially the consistency of his line), and while I do realise that his final average was a tad high, watching the games you could plainly see he was bowling well and the batsmen were showing him the respect of a top line bowler (in that competition, anyway). IIRC he finished with an economy rate of around 3.9 which is outstanding really, and he played a good role for a poor South Australian side.

 

[pup11]

So what would be the right time to introduce these young Aussie spinners to international ODI cricket?

 

[chaminda_00]

So what would be the right time to introduce these young Aussie spinners to international ODI cricket?

Umm, most of them have already been introduced...

 

[Prince EWS]

So what would be the right time to introduce these young Aussie spinners to international ODI cricket?

When they are the best option for the team, obviously. Could be soon, could be never. It's certainly not now though.

 

[Prince EWS]

Umm, most of them have already been introduced...

Yeah, there's that too. I think he meant on a more permanent basis though.

 

[pup11]

Yeah i was talking of them being introduced on a permanent basis since Hoggy is definitely not gonna last till the next WC.

 

[Richard]

You could argue that Hogg should leave the side now. You could argue that he should stay in it as long as he is performing.

Either way, if he were to be replaced now, the logical recipient would be Johnson, Lee, etc. rather than a spinner.

 

[Trigger_Tiger]

.....

In reference to India's future: Thank God for Piyush Chawla !!!!!

 

[pup11]

Trigger... take it easy mate...


Chawla has just played one game against Bangladesh and though he bowled well but certainly its too early to say that he is the next best spinner in Indian cricket.

 

[chaminda_00]

Trigger... take it easy mate...


Chawla has just played one game against Bangladesh and though he bowled well but certainly its too early to say that he is the next best spinner in Indian cricket.

What about his performances at domestic level or his performances at U19 level?

 

[ramkumar_gr]

Trigger... take it easy mate...


Chawla has just played one game against Bangladesh and though he bowled well but certainly its too early to say that he is the next best spinner in Indian cricket.

Yes, i feel currently Amit Mishra is a much better spinner in the longer version. another backdoor entry, very typical of Indian selection.

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/india/content/player/31107.html

 

[Tom Halsey]

To get away from Aussie spinners...

Has anyone actually seen Adil Rasheed bowl? If so, what did they think of him?

 

[Manee]

Trigger... take it easy mate...


Chawla has just played one game against Bangladesh and though he bowled well but certainly its too early to say that he is the next best spinner in Indian cricket.

Spot on. Lets see how he does against the big teams like Australa and Sri Lanka first.

 

[Richard]

To get away from Aussie spinners...

Has anyone actually seen Adil Rasheed bowl? If so, what did they think of him?

Adil Rashid had a piece on him by Simon Hughes in The Torygraph Videos a little while ago, which was linked to in a thread on here. Was fascinating.