Is spin bowling a dying art in modern day cricket?

[Richard]

Well... for a time, yes.

He was also none too flash for a time.

 

[SJS]

He was also none too flash for a time.

I learn a new word/phrase almost every day at CW

 

[Richard]

You've never head that-'un before? I must confess myself flabbergasted.

 

[pup11]

I still think younger breed of Aussie spinners are better compared to other younger spinners of other countries.


Yeah stats of the likes of Bailey, Cullen or Hauritz might not look too great (atm) but then one also needs to take into account that Aussie batsmen have probably been the best players of spin for some time now.



So do you guys also consider this as a possible reason for the average performances of these spinners.

 

[chaminda_00]

Indian batsmen are probably as good players of spin in general. Even when you take out their stats and watch them bowl they are not that great really. Hauritz is servicable at best, Cullen mainly just destroyed lower order his whole career. Bailey probably got the most potential out of them all, but like some the other leggies in Australia, he gets more assistance out of Australian pitches.

It should also be noted that the depth in Australian batting line up is no where as good it used to be and their a lot cheap wickets around in the last couple seasons.

 

[pup11]

Indian batsman have been dire even against average spin bowling for some time, hardly a single Indian batsman uses his feet against the spinners and they let themselves get tied down against spin bowling.

 

[pup11]

Beau Casson was being talked about as a spinner for the future, but he was pathetic last season, he hardlly got a single wicket so can anyone see him improving this season.

 

[SJS]

Indian batsman have been dire even against average spin bowling for some time, hardly a single Indian batsman uses his feet against the spinners and they let themselves get tied down against spin bowling.

Thats true to an extent. I think the likes of Dravid and sachin have reached those stages in their careers when they have a real fear of failure which prevents them from playing spinners in that masterly fashion they did 5-6 years ago. They are still very good in the sense that they can see the wrong ones and even the doosras almost always but its of using their feet to get to the pitch that they have become wary.

Tragedy really.

 

[silentstriker]

I think the question is whether bowling is becoming a dying art in modern day cricket?

 

[Xuhaib]

I think the question is whether bowling is becoming a dying art in modern day cricket?

The heavy bats and tiny ground are not helping the matters much, this brings us to another questions should their be a standard size for the bats being used in intl cricket.

 

[stumpski]

No-one's mentioned Adil Rashid yet ... I don't want to see him 'fast-tracked' into the England side in Schofield fashion, but it's exciting to think of him teaming up with Panesar a year or two down the line.This winter's tour to Sri Lanka may be just a little too soon.

 

[Richard]

I still think younger breed of Aussie spinners are better compared to other younger spinners of other countries.

Yeah stats of the likes of Bailey, Cullen or Hauritz might not look too great (atm) but then one also needs to take into account that Aussie batsmen have probably been the best players of spin for some time now.

So do you guys also consider this as a possible reason for the average performances of these spinners.

Indian batsmen are probably as good players of spin in general. Even when you take out their stats and watch them bowl they are not that great really. Hauritz is servicable at best, Cullen mainly just destroyed lower order his whole career. Bailey probably got the most potential out of them all, but like some the other leggies in Australia, he gets more assistance out of Australian pitches.

It should also be noted that the depth in Australian batting line up is no where as good it used to be and their a lot cheap wickets around in the last couple seasons.

Haha, it's so ludicrous for anyone to say a originating from a certain country automatically means a batsman is good against spin.

There are many Australian batsmen who are good at playing spin, and many who aren't. Same with India, Sri Lanka and the rest.

To suggest that the likes of Hauritz and Cullen are ever going to make Test-standard bowlers has always been laughable to me, I don't think many people imagine the likes of Casson are ever going to get too far, and it's pretty convenient to suggest the Baileys of this World have poor records just because they get played very well. The whole point of a good bowler, and a wristspinner more than anything, is that you can play them as well as you want, they'll still get good figures.

Right now, the cupboard of spin in Australia is bare. Whether someone like Cullen Bailey steps up in the next few seasons waits to be seen. I think it unlikely myself, given the fact that Grimmett\O'Reilly\Warnes have historically not come up without gaps in between.

 

[Dan]

Im not sure, so i'm voting no.

You have Vetorri from NZ who has 10 years or so left in him, You have the Bangladeshi boys, and don't forget Cullen Baily and Dan Cullen for Australia.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha, it's so ludicrous for anyone to say a originating from a certain country automatically means a batsman is good against spin.

There are many Australian batsmen who are good at playing spin, and many who aren't. Same with India, Sri Lanka and the rest.

To suggest that the likes of Hauritz and Cullen are ever going to make Test-standard bowlers has always been laughable to me, I don't think many people imagine the likes of Casson are ever going to get too far, and it's pretty convenient to suggest the Baileys of this World have poor records just because they get played very well. The whole point of a good bowler, and a wristspinner more than anything, is that you can play them as well as you want, they'll still get good figures.

Right now, the cupboard of spin in Australia is bare. Whether someone like Cullen Bailey steps up in the next few seasons waits to be seen. I think it unlikely myself, given the fact that Grimmett\O'Reilly\Warnes have historically not come up without gaps in between.

I think that is silly logic really - assuming that someone won't be good based purely on the fact that another good player has just retired and there have historically been gaps in the process.

The chance of a good spinning emerging now is the same chance it would be at any time. You spoke yourself about it being ludicrous to suggest that a country's spin stocks will continue to follow time patterns over history. As you said, "The whole point of a good bowler, and a wristspinner more than anything, is that you can play them as well as you want, they'll still get good figures." - well, it doesn't matter that Warne has just retired, or that there are typically gaps in the process, if Bailey is a good bowler, he will get good figures. The likelihood of him being a good bowler isn't any less just because Warne just retired, nor is the likelihood of a good bowler coming through.

Now, I highly doubt you've seen Bailey bowl, so you've instead decided to judge him based on his figures and some historical patterns. No-one could possibly say he is test standard right now, but no-one, without seeing him bowl, should be able to make sweeping claims about Australian spinners based on the history of how often they come along or the likes. It'd be like going to the Rashid thread and saying it's highly unlikely that he'll be any good purely based on the fact that he's English and England haven't produced any good wrist spinners at all. The fact that his English really has no bearing on how good a bowler he is (*cues BLE*).

I've seen Bailey bowl a few times - he looks pretty good to me in his action and his approach. Obviously he is not test standard at this stage, however he doesn't have anything intrinsically wrong with him or his action to suggest he can't develop into a test standard bowler, and unlike in England when things so often go incredibly wrong with potentially good bowlers who eventuate into rubbish, the Australian system generally works in a way to get the most of a bowler like Bailey providing he has the right attitude and doesn't have any technical faults. He struggles with consistency game-to-game which is one thing that generally always improves with young bowlers (in Australia anyway) and he certainly needs to develop a quicker, flatter delivery or work a bit more sideways drift in the air into his bowling to stop batsman coming down the track to him with such confidence. To say he is test standard now would be ludicrous, but to make a judgement on a young bowler in development, whom no-one is claiming to be test standard now, without even watching him bowl is equally ludicrous, IMO.

 

[chaminda_00]

I've seen Bailey bowl and i can't see him get to Test standard, you mentioned a few of his faults and his got quite a few others. The thing makes me not cofident that he will get to Test standard, is that fact he does seem to have the same raw potential as say MacGill when he first started. When you first saw MacGill bowl, you could see he was something a bit different and ahead of the pack, mind you he made his FC debut a bit later then Bailey. Bailey seems to be a bowler that you would have to develop the crap out just be get to Test standard. Dan Callen seem to have more raw potential then him, but also has a lot more faults in his bowling.

The thing with all the spinners around Australia they all seem to be there and there abouts, no one seems to be that much better then each other. The likes of Heal and Casson bowled well on more spinner friendly WACA pitches. Cullen and Bailey bowled there best two seasons ago when the Adeiladle Oval pitch was turning a bit more. Last season the pitches didn't turn much and they were pretty average, the same was the case for Casson. A bit surprising the WACA pitch offered more for spinners then SCG, but that how it was really.

 

[pup11]

Ok... lets say all these young Aussie spinners are crap and have no chance at any level of international cricket.



But then name me a few next gen spinners (around in world cricket) who might serve their respective countries for atleast the next 8 to 10 years, who have impressive stats in domestic cricket (atm).

 

[Athlai]

27ish Jeetan Patel (NZ): Domestic Av. 39.76
28ish Daniel Vettori (NZ): Domestic Av. 32.25


And at for Flem!

27ish Nathan McCullum (NZ): Domestic Av. 44.05

Not the hottest figures, but considering this is first class cricket spinners tend to lack the highest quality support, Patel recently proved his worth at the World Cup and Vettori is still young.

My personal verdict on the other McCullum is out, only time will tell.

 

[chaminda_00]

Ok... lets say all these young Aussie spinners are crap and have no chance at any level of international cricket.

But then name me a few next gen spinners (around in world cricket) who might serve their respective countries for atleast the next 8 to 10 years, who have impressive stats in domestic cricket (atm).

If you want to go by FC stats there are plenty of spinners in Sri Lanka i could name who have impressive FC stats, i.e Suraj Mohammed, Malinga Bandara, Nishan Komasaru, Upul Indrasiri, Kaushal Lokuarachchi. But just going off FC stats is slightly mis leading, due to the nature of pitches and quality batsmen. Even though Upul Indrasiri is the pick of those bowlers statistcially, i would all those other bowlers are better then him. But mind you i would be extremely surprised if one of those bowlers doesn't become a decent Test bowler for Sri Lanka, maybe not the next Murali, but atleast play significant role in Test Cricket for us. I can't say the same about the seamers coming through.

Also even though a player like Jeetan Patel averages 40, with the ball so far, he does look to me as he could be good enough to play Test Cricket for NZ for another 10 years and do a good job.

 

[pup11]

The next season would really decide where all these young Aussie spinner stand.


But more importantly how long do you guys think George would keep on playing ODI cricket and when he retires who should be brought into the side instead of him Cullen or Hauritz??

 

[chaminda_00]

The next season would really decide where all these young Aussie spinner stand.

Thats what was said last season tbh and will be said again next season if Hogg and MacGill play all the internationals.

But more importantly how long do you guys think George would keep on playing ODI cricket and when he retires who should be brought into the side instead of him Cullen or Hauritz??

Hopefully for Australia sack, by then White has remembered how to bowl. His ability as a batting all rounder, would be valuable then a specialist spinner. But some rate Hauritz and Bailey as bowling all rounders. Also Simpson showed some potential as ODI prospect last season, probably bowled better then Cullen. Hauritz and Simpson were the pick of OD bowlers last season, though i doubt either will be good enough for ODIs.