Is KP an ATG Test Batsman?

[grecian]

Haha now come on, way to overanalyse what I said. Simply a case that had he not made his own life so difficult he would have done more. I did not use this to put others down.

To put it more simply, KP has the ability to achieve more than he has but, as vic said, has not kicked on in the way he threatened to at times.

Yeah, but it's something that annoys me a bit, if it wasn't for Athertons back et cetera, et cetera. You an always put caveats on peoples performance, if only Bradman hadn't got nought in the last innings.

It's just pointless, can only compare on what they actually did, and everyone could have been better if....

 

[Red]

3. Hammond
4. May
5. Compton

that's my take

Looks ok, but I think you have to include Barrington.

Maybe...

Hammond
Barrington
Compton


edit...

Barrington actually averaged 77 in 40 innings at number 3. He has to be at 3, surely...


1. Hobbs
2. Hutton
3. Barrington
4. Hammond
5. Compton
6. Botham


Compton averaged 57 in 22 innings at number 5

 

[grecian]

Looks ok, but I think you have to include Barrington.

Maybe...

Hammond
Barrington
Compton


edit...

Barrington actually averaged 77 in 40 innings at number 3. He has to be at 3, surely...


1. Hobbs
2. Hutton
3. Barrington
4. Hammond
5. Compton
6. Botham


Compton averaged 57 in 22 innings at number 5

Yeah, Barrington just has to play, even if it may not be thrilling watching him and Hutton put on tons of runs, but the batsmen after more than make up for that.

 

[Jager]

What about...

1. Hobbs
2. Sutcliffe
3. Hutton
4. Hammond
5. Compton

Personally I could never break up the Hobbs/Sutcliffe partnership, and Hutton easily over Barrington for me.

 

[watson]

Basically agree with you Jager, although I believe that the No.3 spot is too important to muck about with. An established and proven No.3 batsman with a touch of arrogance is always best if you can slot him in. However, I don't think that substituting Barrington with Compton is an option because Barrington's average of 58.67 is too high to ignore, plus Compton's failure during his 1950-51 tour of Australia (ave = 7.57) sticks out like a sore thumb;

01. Hobbs
02. Sutcliffe
03. Hammond
04. Barrington
05. Hutton

OR

01. Hobbs
02. Hutton
03. Hammond
04. Barrington
05. Compton

Either would work I think. Incidently, Hutton himself once indicated that he would be happy to bat at No.5.

IMO Ian Botham is not good enough to bat at No.6 in an ATG England team due to his repeated failures against the West Indies.

And BTW IMO Kevin Pietersen is not quite great enough to make the squad in my opionion. His last 3 years have not been good despite his recent success against Steyn and co.

 

[Jacknife]

Basically agree with you Jager, although I believe that the No.3 spot is too important to muck about with. An established and proven No.3 batsman with a touch of arrogance is always best if you can slot him in. However, I don't think that substituting Barrington with Compton is an option because Barrington's average of 58.67 is too high to ignore, plus Compton's failure during his 1950-51 tour of Australia (ave = 7.57) sticks out like a sore thumb;

01. Hobbs
02. Sutcliffe
03. Hammond
04. Barrington
05. Hutton

OR

01. Hobbs
02. Hutton
03. Hammond
04. Barrington
05. Compton

Either would work I think. Incidently, Hutton himself once indicated that he would be happy to bat at No.5.

IMO Ian Botham is not good enough to bat at No.6 in an ATG England team due to his repeated failures against the West Indies.

And BTW IMO Kevin Pietersen is not quite great enough to make the squad in my opionion. His last 3 years have not been good despite his recent success against Steyn and co.

He's averaged 49 the last 3 years pretty which much mirrors his career average tbf. Even though he went through a period of not reaching 3 figures after he was injured in 2009, on the whole he's been quite consistent over the years.

Yearly averges

2005 - 45
2006 - 54
2007 - 50
2008 - 51
2009 - 48
2010 - 42
2011 - 73
2012 - 42

Agree on the whole he just misses out but could play him at 6 depending on the balance of the side.

 

[fredfertang]

Pietersen is an arrogant tosser who I dislike intensely and would never have described as an All Time Great, although I obviously had to concede he was a bloody good bat

And then there was Headingly - an unselfish and top class innings against a pretty formidable attack - pretty pissed off that having now achieved that status in my mind that we'll probably never see him again

Of course he's not the first to have become an ATG in the course of an innings of 149 at Headingly ...................

 

[Cricketismylife]

No way is Pietersen an all time great. He's played his career in a fairly batting friendly era and even though his record is decent there are plenty of batsman who have scored more consistently than him. People are still unsure whether the likes of Sangakkara and Chanderpaul are ATG's, never mind Younus Khan and Inzamam who aren't even regarded as one, so on that basis Pietersen doesn't really come close.

He is capable of playing innings that very few other players can play, but that isn't enough to make him an ATG. The recent 149 was an amazing innings but its just one innings that turned a possible loss into a draw. Other batsman may have been able to achieve the same as Pietersen in a less spectacular way, but in terms of effectiveness it's the same thing.

As mentioned one of his strengths is his ability to perform against high quality attacks, but it's a lack of consistency (average 48 in this era is some way below many other batsmen) that holds him back. Also I wouldn't have him in an England All time 11, there are too many other good players. Put it this way, he's better than Graham Thorpe but not by that much and Thorpe is not a name you would put in the same universe as all time great batsmen.

 

[watson]

Younus Khan and Inzamam who aren't even regarded as one

Inzamam is Pakistan's second best batsman (equal with Mohammad Yousef) after Javed Miandad IMO. Zaheer Abbas follows those gentleman as he averaged only 18.50 against the west Indies in 15 innings.

It would be very difficult to argue that Inzamam is not an ATG. Admittedly his stat's against Australia are not brilliant, but they aren't that bad either.

 

[Cricketismylife]

Inzamam is Pakistan's second best batsman (equal with Mohammad Yousef) after Javed Miandad IMO. Zaheer Abbas follows those gentleman as he averaged only 18.50 against the west Indies in 15 innings.

It would be very difficult to argue that Inzamam is not an ATG. Admittedly his stat's against Australia are not brilliant, but they aren't that bad either.

I'm a big Inzi fan and would love to have him as an ATG. He is Pakistan's 2nd best ever imo after Javed and better than Yousuf, but the problem is to be an ATG you have to at least be in that tier of top players. As great as Inzi is, he is not in that league with Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Dravid, Sanga etc. He's not far below but he's definitely a step below.

 

[grecian]

No way is Pietersen an all time great. He's played his career in a fairly batting friendly era and even though his record is decent there are plenty of batsman who have scored more consistently than him. People are still unsure whether the likes of Sangakkara and Chanderpaul are ATG's, never mind Younus Khan and Inzamam who aren't even regarded as one, so on that basis Pietersen doesn't really come close.

He is capable of playing innings that very few other players can play, but that isn't enough to make him an ATG. The recent 149 was an amazing innings but its just one innings that turned a possible loss into a draw. Other batsman may have been able to achieve the same as Pietersen in a less spectacular way, but in terms of effectiveness it's the same thing.

As mentioned one of his strengths is his ability to perform against high quality attacks, but it's a lack of consistency (average 48 in this era is some way below many other batsmen) that holds him back. Also I wouldn't have him in an England All time 11, there are too many other good players. Put it this way, he's better than Graham Thorpe but not by that much and Thorpe is not a name you would put in the same universe as all time great batsmen.

Yeah, I'm always fascinated by this, Laxman, Gooch, Kp, all seem to be massively over-rated on this. For my mind it should be a deciding factor, if you performed similarly, but you were better against the best, edge you ahead, but if you kept on giving your wicket away to piss-poor bowling, or just average bowling that you weren't very good at, (gooch, medium pace induckers, Kp SLA bowlers) why should this be ignored just coz the bowlers who got them out were average?

 

[watson]

He's averaged 49 the last 3 years pretty which much mirrors his career average tbf. Even though he went through a period of not reaching 3 figures after he was injured in 2009, on the whole he's been quite consistent over the years.

Yearly averges

2005 - 45
2006 - 54
2007 - 50
2008 - 51
2009 - 48
2010 - 42
2011 - 73
2012 - 42

Agree on the whole he just misses out but could play him at 6 depending on the balance of the side.

I was thinking more of individual series rather than overall averages. His last two efforts against Pakistan were terrible. Averaged 23.32 and 11.16. While he looked good against Steyn and co. recently, his tour of South Africa in 2009/10 was a failure.

Throw in moderate scores against Bangladesh in 2010 and Sri Lanka in 2011 when he should have throttled the attack, and you have an underwhelming 3 years or so from KP.

 

[MrPrez]

I don't rate KP as an ATG. A legend of the game for his personality etc, but he hasn't done enough on the field to deserve that mantra. He's a good way behind the best batsmen of the past 10-15 years (Ponting, Tendulkar, Kallis etc) and so when you take chronological relevance into account he falls well short of the marker.

 

[uvelocity]

I don't rate KP as an ATG. A legend of the game for his personality etc, but he hasn't done enough on the field to deserve that mantra. He's a good way behind the best batsmen of the past 10-15 years (Ponting, Tendulkar, Kallis etc) and so when you take chronological relevance into account he falls well short of the marker.

 

[BeeGee]

Very good batsman? Yes.

ATG? Nope, not even close.

 

[Jager]

Silver tier for me.

 

[Cricketismylife]

Yeah, I'm always fascinated by this, Laxman, Gooch, Kp, all seem to be massively over-rated on this. For my mind it should be a deciding factor, if you performed similarly, but you were better against the best, edge you ahead, but if you kept on giving your wicket away to piss-poor bowling, or just average bowling that you weren't very good at, (gooch, medium pace induckers, Kp SLA bowlers) why should this be ignored just coz the bowlers who got them out were average?

I agree with this in general. KP and Bell are fairly similar statistically, but I rate KP higher because his performances do not drop off as much as Bell against the strong attacks. And even though it's important to dominate moderate attacks such as the Sri Lankan one that Bell averaged 350 against last summer, you can be sure that other batsman can do the job against those type of teams, whereas against an attack like SA, there wont be as many team mates who can score big.

Laxman is a bit more unique. I don't think his issue is not performing against weak bowling, I think his issue is not performing in dead situations, which is not as bad. Laxman is a player who I can hardly ever remember cashing in in meaningless situations, which is why I rate him to be better than his stats show.

 

[infoleather]

Intuitive sense, it is easier to call a person is ATG, if they hit a decade or longer.

 

[Flametree]

I join the nay-sayers.

Pietersen's ability to score runs quickly and tear attacks apart certainly puts him ahead of most of his contemporaries, but in the time he's been playing, he's averaged about the same as or a fair bit less than :

- two of his team-mates (Cook, Bell)
- three Australians (Ponting, Hussey, Clarke)
- three Sri Lankans (Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Samaraweera)
- four Indians (Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid, Laxman)
- one or two Pakistanis (Younis, need to check Yousuf's stats)
- one West Indian (Chanderpaul)
- four South Africans (Smith, Amla, de Villiers, Kallis)

As said, I'd pick Pietersen ahead of nearly all of those batsmen who average in the 48-52 bracket just for the way he scores his runs, but to be an ATG he has to stand out from his contemporaries, not be in a bunch with about 15 others...