Is Javed Miandad somewhat underrated and who was the best against the WIs in the 80s?

[NUFAN]

and very rarely do you see him in a (non Pakistani) ATG team.

This should not be a surprise.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bit underrated now maybe but at the time was definitely rated as one of the top bats of his time.

He's still rated as one of the top bats of his time, (rightly so) isn't he? Don't think he's particularly underrated.

 

[Sachin114]

I think he is rated fine as the best batsman from Pakistan. There have been several better #4 batsmen so it is difficult for Miandad to get a spot in an all-time XI.

SJS once made a post about how no one had good figures v the great West Indian attacks. He showed how even Gavaskar's figures become average when he faced the best Windies fast bowling attacks compared to his record v WI overall.

Amarnath and Boycott have an excellent record against the quartet.

 

[Top_Cat]

He's still rated as one of the top bats of his time, (rightly so) isn't he? Don't think he's particularly underrated.

It's just a intuition. In the 80s and early 90's, he was spoken about as right up there with Viv whereas I dunno whether that's the case any more.

 

[Red]

Yeh, that's kind of my point. And is there any reason NOT to rank him among the great #4s?

 

[cricmad]

Miandad is one of those unique personalities. People love to hate him. His batting style wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing to put it mildly. And his constant sledging and get under the skin tactics didn't endear him to the opposition or fans, again to put it mildly. People hated his guts. In fact, he and Imran weren't too fond of each other but played together and gave their best for the sake of the team. And barely a year or so after he was a key player in Pakistan's world cup win in 1992, his own team mates rebelled against him and he was sacked as captain. After retirement he had couple of stints as coach and again, had issues with players, selectors etc.
Miandad loved a battle and handled pressure very well. Pakistan's batting wasn't strong in the mid to late eighties and he was one batsman their entire batting revolved around.
If you wanted someone to bat to save your life, he would be one of the top picks to do so. His record against the West Indies might seem underwhelming but he was a key contributor in that epic series in 1988. Today's batsmen have averages in the mid 50s but how well do they do in tough batting conditions against good bowling attacks?

 

[vcs]

Miandad was an obnoxious loathsome dick. But as a middle order batsman during his time the only two I would rank above him for certain are Viv Richards and Greg Chappell.

Yeah, he was a massive ****, but I'm sure he was the type of player you love if they play for you.

Remember celebrating massively when he was run out in the WC '96 QF, by which time he was well past his prime and played a Misbah-type innings.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Remember celebrating massively when he was run out in the WC '96 QF, by which time he was well past his prime and played a Misbah-type innings.

Haha yes that's one of few the memories I have of Miandad too. I didn't really grasp the fact that he was no longer the great batsman he once was and was shitting the bed because of the reputation he had of screwing India over singlehandedly (sharjah and all). Then that runout. So satisfying.

 

[bagapath]

Miandad was a pain the arse for any bowling attack. he was good against pace but bloody excellent against spin. However his good away-tests average in the 40s (for his times) is over compensated by a gargantuan home-tests average in the mid 60s bringing his overall figures well above the greats of his time like gavaskar, border and viv with only greg chappell above him. he was very good, but probably not that good.

to answer the question posed in the OP...

Graham Gooch should be ranked right on top as the most accomplished player of the 80s West Indian pace attack. (gavaskar's best was in the 70s)
Border should be a close second. Still, since Gooch was an opener, he should be given the title, IMO

 

[hallmitchell]

And Keep in Mind players have said it was impossible to get Javed out LBW in Pakistan in the days on non neutral umpiring.

Javed Miandad's stats against the West Indies are OK but nothing to get excited about, especially at Home.

Home V West Indies
Tests = 9
Runs = 429
Average = 26.81
HS = 76
50s = 4
100s = 0

Away V West Indies
Tests = 7
Runs = 405
Average = 33.75
HS = 114
50s = 0
100s = 2


However, Miandad's 1988 series against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Patterson, and Benjamin was excellent. His critical century during the 1st Test in Barbados allowed Imran to take 11 wickets for the match and bowl Pakistan to victory.

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Georgetown, Apr 2-6, 1988 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo


The series ended 1 -1 and was the only time that the West Indies were seriously challenged on their home turf during the 1980s.

1988 Series in West Indies
Tests = 3
Runs = 282
Average 56.40
HS = 114
50s = 0
100s = 2


Perhaps we can overlook Miandad's mediocre average against the West Indies because of his runs in this iconic series?

 

[hallmitchell]

Good list, I would like to throw Allan Lamb in there!

Border, Gooch, Crowe, Vengsarkar, Miandad and Gavaskar all had pretty solid figures against them during this time.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Possibly

 

[Godard]

Was thinking about Miandad and wondering if he is underrated a bit. Hardly is mentioned when great players are mentioned, and very rarely do you see him in a (non Pakistani) ATG team.

Did a bit of stat-diving to see how consistent his record was against all opponents in all conditions, and was not surprised to see it was excellent everywhere and against everyone except the WIs, which is hardly surprising considering Miandad played in the late 70s/80s/early 90s. Against everyone else his record is very good.

So a few questions. How harshly should we judge players based on one blip in their record against an incredibly powerful bowling opponent from their era? Especially when they are consistent against everyone else. And secondly, which players have actually excelled against excellent bowling attacks. I'm thinking players who have excelled against attacks like:

Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Marshall thru to the Ambrose, Marshall Walsh era
McGrath, Warne, Gillepsie + one
Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Qadir
Trueman, Statham, Tyson, Laker

If I'm wrong about some of the above, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Viv dominated peak Imran, Qadir, and a young(but dangerous)Akram in 1988, and Imran/Qadir/etc in 1980/81.

 

[Zinzan]

Crowe was the best vs. the great Windies side, especially in 1986-87 when he scored 2 hundreds and an 83 (after windies were rolled for 100) in the 3 test series & was in majestic form. Also his 188 in the WI at Georgetown in '85 as a 22 year old against Marshall, Holding, Garner & co at their very strongest.

 

[BazBall21]

Gooch.

123 out of 269 against Holding, Garner, Roberts, Croft at Lords.

116 out of 224 against Holding, Garner, Roberts, Croft in Barbados.

153 out of 285 against Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft in Jamaica.

146 against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Patterson at Trent Bridge.

84 out of 202 against Marshall, Ambrose, Benjamin, Walsh at the Kennington Oval.

And if this from 1991 counts (it should as it's the same gun foursome attack); 154* out of 252 against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Patterson at Headingley.

Every single one of his twenty-six Tests against WI came against them in their invincible phase in pace-orientated conditions as an opener and he averaged forty-five with consistency.

 

[peterhrt]

Between June 1976, when West Indies cranked up their fast bowling strategy, and February 1995, their last unbeaten series at the end of a long sequence, 14 batsmen averaged 40 or more in Tests against them. The nine matches when West Indies' Packer players were missing are excluded. Qualification 10 innings.

Wasim Raja 763 runs @ 58 / 1 century
Mark Waugh 707 @ 47 / 2 centuries
Martin Crowe 544 @ 45 / 3 centuries
Laird 540 @ 45
Salim Malik 456 @ 45 / 1 century
Gooch 2197 @ 44 / 5 centuries
Robin Smith 1028 @ 44 / 3 centuries
Wessels 670 @ 44 / 1 century
Vengsarkar 1119 @ 43 / 4 centuries
Boon 1285 @ 42 / 3 centuries
Alec Stewart 716 @ 42 / 2 centuries
Majid Khan 684 @ 42 / 1 century
Gavaskar 754 @ 41 / 3 centuries
Boycott 663 @ 41 / 1 century

Others mentioned on this thread:

Border 2052 @ 39 / 3 centuries
Lamb 1342 @ 34 / 6 centuries
Mohinder Amarnath 655 @ 32 / 2 centuries
Javed Miandad 834 @ 29 / 2 centuries

Also with 1000 runs:

Gower 1149 @ 32 / 1 century

 

[The Sean]

Stumpy Laird greatness confirmed.

I'd assumed Gavaskar's numbers might have been better than that, considering he made 236* in one innings.

 

[peterhrt]

I'd assumed Gavaskar's numbers might have been better than that, considering he made 236* in one innings.

It was his last innings against West Indies. He was batting number four having been persuaded not to stand down from the team following nine single-figure scores against them that year.

 

[The Sean]

It was his last innings against West Indies. He was batting number four having been persuaded not to stand down from the team following nine single-figure scores against them that year.

I'd not realised his form against them had been quite that bad - I knew he came in at 4 in that innings, but the first two wickets fell immediately so he was essentially opening anyway!

 

[peterhrt]

I'd not realised his form against them had been quite that bad - I knew he came in at 4 in that innings, but the first two wickets fell immediately so he was essentially opening anyway!

Yes he was in without a run on the board.

After a couple of low scores in the first match of the home series, Gavaskar decided to change tactics and go on the attack. Donning a small skull cap, he hooked Marshall for four and six in the first over, reached fifty in 37 balls and ended with 121 off 128 deliveries. Holding got him cheaply in the second innings, but in the third Test at Ahmedabad the attacking approach came off again with 90 off 120 balls.

There followed five cheap dismissals at the hands of Holding and Marshall, after which he offered to stand down. Then the double ton.