Is Graham Gooch over rated?

[Goocheslamb]

^ well i was talking about his average, his average from from 1975-1989 was 36 and his career average is 42. No doubt he had some amazing knocks for England that won matches, but I am talking about how over all record compared with other players.

 

[Burgey]

No, he isn't over-rated. He was a great player for England imo.

Warne, for one, rated him the best English player he bowled to, in his biography he mentions referring to GG is "Mr Gooch" on the 93 Ashes tour, and GG wondering if Warne was taking the piss. Warne had to tell him he wasn't, he was referring to him as Mr out of respect.

 

[Top_Cat]

haha, yeah with that mo, he definitely looks like someone you should call Mr.

 

[Richard]

No, he isn't over-rated. He was a great player for England imo.

Warne, for one, rated him the best English player he bowled to, in his biography he mentions referring to GG is "Mr Gooch" on the 93 Ashes tour, and GG wondering if Warne was taking the piss. Warne had to tell him he wasn't, he was referring to him as Mr out of respect.

That's GA. But yeah, 1993 was slap in the middle of Gooch's mirablis. No surprise that anyone who first encountered him there would think him the best England batsman they ever bowled to. Mind, I imagine Murray Bennett might think something similar as well.

Atherton described it as "he knew his time (as captain) was up, but he still smashed hundreds at <whichever grounds they were, I can't remember>"

 

[Richard]

^ well i was talking about his average, his average from from 1975-1989 was 36 and his career average is 42. No doubt he had some amazing knocks for England that won matches, but I am talking about how over all record compared with other players.

As I say - between '78 and '88 he did pretty darn well, averaging 39. Not magnificently, but pretty darn well. He simply suffers for the fact that he was initially brought in on a pitch that happened to be a sticky. Even despite this, the signs were there of how good he was going to become.

He also had a poor final year, like so many do. But the only really, really bad period which came in the significant part of his career was 1989, though obviously he had some series' where he was less successful than you'd hope.

 

[zaremba]

I think he's highly respected but I don't think he's over-rated. He was a very fine player but I don't think many people would describe him as a great one.

I'm no technical analyst, but I always thought his technique was simple to the point of non-existence. Not that he was ugly at the crease, he just seemed to have little footwork and to lack flourish. But boy he could smack the ball hard, and he got runs against all kinds of bowling (Alderman excepted). He was outstanding against the quicks, but could equally well murder both spinners and medium-pace trundlers alike.

Things to hold against him include: (a) dumping David Gower 2 years before his time because he didn't know how to handle him; (b) buggering off to Apartheid South Africa.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Remember hearing from some commentator that he was trying to call Gooch some time ago and he kept getting his voicemail. The voicemail message was something along the lines of "Sorry, I'm out. Probably LBW to Terry Alderman."

Speaks volumes of the man tbh.

That's awesome.

Gooch definitely isn't over-rated. He was a very good cricketer. I remember sitting up watching Ashes tours and was never comfortable while Gooch was in.

 

[wpdavid]

That's awesome.

Gooch definitely isn't over-rated. He was a very good cricketer. I remember sitting up watching Ashes tours and was never comfortable while Gooch was in.

Still, I suppose the discomfort didn't last long during the 1989 tour.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Still, I suppose the discomfort didn't last long during the 1989 tour.

Usually about as long as a commercial break.

 

[Richard]

Hah, we didn't have those things back in ye quainte olde days of 1989 and the BBC.

It's also interesting that Gooch's record against Australia was pretty moderate until the 1985 series, though in effect that's comprised of the 1979/80 series where he did well and the 1981 one where he did diabolically, plus the Centenary Test in 1980.

 

[wpdavid]

Hah, we didn't have those things back in ye quainte olde days of 1989 and the BBC.

It's also interesting that Gooch's record against Australia was pretty moderate until the 1985 series, though in effect that's comprised of the 1979/80 series where he did well and the 1981 one where he did diabolically, plus the Centenary Test in 1980.

There was also the 1978/79 series where, even against Aus reserves, I barely recall him making a score. Did he really do well in 1979/80? I remember him running himself out for 99 in the 3rd test but there may have been other scores. My impression of 1985 was he was virtually the last of the batsmen to show up - Gower, Gatting & even Robinson tonned up before Gooch did. I know he made a huge 100 at the Oval, but even he'd realised that this particular Aus attack was ropey as anything by then. My view was that he was intimidated by them for years because of his experiences in 1975.

EDIT
Averaged 20 in 1978/79, 43 in 4 innings in 1979/80, 14 in 1981 and 36 in the first 5 test of 1985. Then averaged 20 in 1989, which was rather more than I'd imagined, actually,

 

[Richard]

I never take much notice of the stuff that happened in the 1978/79 Ashes TBH. They must stand as Test matches because Packer matches must be defiled to the maximum extent and the non-Test-ness of them must be emphasised, but for the intents of judging players I treat them little different to Bangladesh. I don't count the players who played in those Tests as capped by Australia or West Indies and I don't count the results in them as anything to do with the first-teams of those two sides.

And while Australia's attack was obviously very poor indeed in 1985 (O'Donnell, Gilbert, Bennett and an aged and useless Thomson) he still seems to have done perfectly well enough to be said to have had a good series, even if he came into it after the Robinsons et al.

It'd surprise me if anyone would let scarring from a couple of Tests, one on a sticky, at the age of 21, do much damage. Especially someone as strong-minded as Gooch.

 

[wpdavid]

I never take much notice of the stuff that happened in the 1978/79 Ashes TBH. They must stand as Test matches because Packer matches must be defiled to the maximum extent and the non-Test-ness of them must be emphasised, but for the intents of judging players I treat them little different to Bangladesh. I don't count the players who played in those Tests as capped by Australia or West Indies and I don't count the results in them as anything to do with the first-teams of those two sides.

And while Australia's attack was obviously very poor indeed in 1985 (O'Donnell, Gilbert, Bennett and an aged and useless Thomson) he still seems to have done perfectly well enough to be said to have had a good series, even if he came into it after the Robinsons et al.

It'd surprise me if anyone would let scarring from a couple of Tests, one on a sticky, at the age of 21, do much damage. Especially someone as strong-minded as Gooch.

I know it's a no-win situation for Gooch, but it can't be good to have failed in 1978/79.
As for 1975, obv I'm only guessing His scores against WI in 1980 & 1981 show he wasn't weak-willed as such, but it took him years to do as well against Aus. Maybe just one of those things, but he did frustrate me like crazy in those days.

 

[Richard]

In my experience most England players tend to frustrate you like crazy. No surprise in that at all, either. England players as a rule just don't tend to do as well as those from other places.

Last ones who did were Boycott and Willis, and even Willis usually disappeared when West Indies were in town.

 

[Matt79]

Plenty of otherwise great batsmen have had bogie sides against whom they've struggled, often seemingly regardless of who was actually bowling for said bogie team. Other players have had particular opponents from one team who have tormented them out of all proportion for their general levels of respective talent - Messers Ponting and Harbhajan, I'm looking at you.

Australia seems for most of Gooch's career to be his bogie team.

 

[Richard]

Michael Holding never even played Pakistan, and struggled in his one series in New Zealand (admittedly not helped, as weren't the rest, by the Umpiring). Garry Sobers' one series in a Test-class New Zealand produced poor results. Etc. etc.

Sometimes it's just the way the cookie crumbles; sometimes it's due to certain technical areas (eg, Doug Walters in England and Robin Smith against Shane Warne).