Is Graham Gooch over rated?

[weldone]

Over-rated by England fans, under-rated internationally.

Perfect

 

[Richard]

Is it create a gooch thread today?

This is the only one that's been created today. The rest have been dug.

 

[fredfertang]

'did gooch play the greatest innings in england ever?'

Yes I believe he did

 

[BoyBrumby]

I have no problem with him taking the money, cricketers only have a certain amount of time to make money.

Business is a different thing stockbrokers can still trade 20 years later

I do. He and his confreres were tacitly lending their support to a wicked regime. I'd have no qualms if he'd chosen to play in a benign rebel tournament like Packer's WSC or the ICL for the extra readies, but touring Apartheid era SA was a bigger issue than just money.

 

[wpdavid]

I do. He and his confreres were tacitly lending their support to a wicked regime. I'd have no qualms if he'd chosen to play in a benign rebel tournament like Packer's WSC or the ICL for the extra readies, but touring Apartheid era SA was a bigger issue than just money.

True, although it was probably expecting too much of yer average English cricketer to take that viewpoint given our rather cosy relationship with the guys in charge over there. You had to look very hard indeed to find any English cricketers who supported the ban, and Gooch simply reflected the general consensus with in his world. My objection to him going in 1982, unlike many of the others, was that he should have been approaching his prime as a test cricketer, but preferred an easy payday knowing full well it would take him out of test cricket for a while. Whilst I didn't like the older guys going there, I could at least understand the felt need to top up their retirement lump-sum.

All that being said, I found Gooch a profoundly frustrating cricketer until 1990, and I don't see that we can exclude his 1989 failures to get a more realistic picture. My impression was that he simply froze against Australia, maybe due to his ducks in his first two (or was it three?) innings against them in 1975. IIRC he mostly failed against their reserves in 1978/9, played one decent knock 12 months later when his self-inflicted run-out for 99 seemed indicative of his mindset, and did naff all in 1981. Even in 1985, against the weakest Aus attack for several generations, he didn't cash in until Gower had paved the way. And then he refused to tour the place in 1986/87, which I found particularly bizarre. Maybe a dose of whatever Botham was smoking would have helped sort him out, as he seemed to lack Beefy's attitude to test cricket.

Yes, he played some fine knocks against the great WI attacks of 1980 & 1981, but they were very much the exception and by 1989 he just looked like another English talent who had failed to completely deliver. Without Gatting's 1989 'rebel' tour, that's quite possibly where his career would have ended, which is ironic in a way.

 

[GIMH]

I have read about it before but can't remember - why was it he didn't go down under in 86/87?

 

[Goughy]

Yes I believe he did

I make no apologies for mentioning my (very small) role in this whenever mentioned.

As I get older these small things that pretty cool when I was young become more important, I bowled (along with 3 other quicks with Boycott informally working with Gooch)to him in the nets on the 3rd morning of the Test when he was resuming on 80 odd not out.

EDIT- The mind does strange things. I just checked and it was on the 3rd morning but in prep of England 2nd innings and he hadnt started his inning yet.

 

[Richard]

I have read about it before but can't remember - why was it he didn't go down under in 86/87?

Same reason Stewart and Gough missed the winter of '01/02 (though they only wanted to miss the first half of it), and Mahendra Dhoni recently missed the series in Sri Lanka. And Anderson Roberts missed the Third and Fourth Tests against India in '76. Sometimes players just feel they need a break, and it's absolutely fair enough to give them it. They take them in full knowledge that if someone does well in their absence they might not get straight back in, but if they feel they'd only let the team down if they tried to play a series they were too tired to play, they should opt out.

 

[wpdavid]

I have read about it before but can't remember - why was it he didn't go down under in 86/87?

I think it was because the previous winter's tour (to WI) had been an absolute nightmare and he didn't fancy a repeat. Not that the Aus attack was ever likely to mirror Patterson, Ambrose, Walsh & Marshall of course. Silly bugger missed out on some relatively easy runs afaics.

 

[wpdavid]

Same reason Stewart and Gough missed the winter of '01/02 (though they only wanted to miss the first half of it), and Mahendra Dhoni recently missed the series in Sri Lanka. And Anderson Roberts missed the Third and Fourth Tests against India in '76. Sometimes players just feel they need a break, and it's absolutely fair enough to give them it. They take them in full knowledge that if someone does well in their absence they might not get straight back in, but if they feel they'd only let the team down if they tried to play a series they were too tired to play, they should opt out.

Gough's absence was due the aftermath of 9/11, wasn't it? Stewart, IIRC, used the time for a long-needed piece of surgery, possibly on his elbow.

Gooch in Autumn 1986 had only been a test cricketer again for a year and a bit, although I can see that 1986 would have been enough to turn anyone English off the game. I don't recall any reasons what he should have been more tired than Botham, Gatting, Gower, Lamb & others.

 

[Richard]

I think it was because the previous winter's tour (to WI) had been an absolute nightmare and he didn't fancy a repeat. Not that the Aus attack was ever likely to mirror Patterson, Ambrose, Walsh & Marshall of course. Silly bugger missed out on some relatively easy runs afaics.

'Twas Marshall, Holding, Garner and Patterson TBH. Ambrose was yet to debut for 2 years and Walsh, having played as a first-choice in Australia in '84/85, had to sit and wait as Patterson replaced him.

That '86 Blackwash series was the last hurrah of that attack (Holding and Garner played 3 more games without great effect), Larry Gomes (he was useless in his last season) and West Indies as a dominant team (they went from thrashing everyone to winning the easy series' and drawing the harder ones).

 

[Richard]

Gough's absence was due the aftermath of 9/11, wasn't it? Stewart, IIRC, used the time for a long-needed piece of surgery, possibly on his elbow.

Nah, Gough and Stewart just wanted a break - Stewart took the opportunity to have said surgery. Caddick and Croft then pulled-out due to the US attacks on Afghanistan.

Gooch in Autumn 1986 had only been a test cricketer again for a year and a bit, although I can see that 1986 would have been enough to turn anyone English off the game. I don't recall any reasons what he should have been more tired than Botham, Gatting, Gower, Lamb & others.

I see. You're right, of course. Seems a little odd then.

 

[wpdavid]

'Twas Marshall, Holding, Garner and Patterson TBH. Ambrose was yet to debut for 2 years and Walsh, having played as a first-choice in Australia in '84/85, had to sit and wait as Patterson replaced him.

That '86 Blackwash series was the last hurrah of that attack, Larry Gomes and West Indies as a dominant team.

So it was. I'd completely forgotten that Holding was still around, but I should have remembered garmer, if only for removing part of Gatting's nose from the ball after *that* injury.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Gooch a reclusive, miserable git on tour until he became captain. He didn't go on the Ashes tour of 86/87 simply because he didn't want to be away from home - at that time the Australian tour was still a long one.

 

[bagapath]

I make no apologies for mentioning my (very small) role in this whenever mentioned.

As I get older these small things that pretty cool when I was young become more important, I bowled (along with 3 other quicks with Boycott informally working with Gooch)to him in the nets on the 3rd morning of the Test when he was resuming on 80 odd not out.

EDIT- The mind does strange things. I just checked and it was on the 3rd morning but in prep of England 2nd innings and he hadnt started his inning yet.

very jealous of you goughy. i wish i had been that lucky. do you have any autographs, pictures that you can scan and post here?

 

[Neil Pickup]

My first cricketing hero. Thought I'd share that with you.

 

[Richard]

Mine too. One of precious few things we have in common.

Naturally, I was a bigger fan of his than you were though. Though I'll give you that your first memories of him date from further back than mine.

 

[fredfertang]

I make no apologies for mentioning my (very small) role in this whenever mentioned.

As I get older these small things that pretty cool when I was young become more important, I bowled (along with 3 other quicks with Boycott informally working with Gooch)to him in the nets on the 3rd morning of the Test when he was resuming on 80 odd not out.

EDIT- The mind does strange things. I just checked and it was on the 3rd morning but in prep of England 2nd innings and he hadnt started his inning yet.

Sounds like a role of some significance to me - most compelling day of cricket I've ever watched so many thanks

 

[Goughy]

very jealous of you goughy. i wish i had been that lucky. do you have any autographs, pictures that you can scan and post here?

Suprisingly I have very little. Not one photograph. It didnt seem much of an event at the time. I bowled at the teams and did fielding drills for 3 days and didnt get 1 photo. I was too young to appreciate it (the 4th day of the Test was my 15th birthday). Saying that I did the same SA vs Eng much later and didnt get one then either.

I had 'Boycott on Cricket' with me which I got Boycott, Gooch, Watkin and Lamb to sign and in a drawer somewhere I still have the ball Lance Gibbs gave me on day 1 to bowl at WI.

Just memories. TBH, a photo would have been nice but there really wasnt an opportunity. It was pretty business like. Arrive and bowl and then watch and then repeat.

 

[morgieb]

How the hell is Gooch over-rated? If anything he's underrated. Argubaly England's best batsman over the past 30 years.