Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[trundler]

I

Why the batting records of ODI batsmen from 2010 onwards can't be trusted is evidenced by the fact that the third most successful seam bowler was Perera, who averaged 32. Comparing that to the 2000s and 90s, you had Ntini and Srinath who averaged 25 and 28 respectively.

I always thought Kulasekara was low key very good. Now I know why.

 

[honestbharani]

How about we look at contemporaries of Gilchrist.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

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Plenty of players averaged more than him but very few struck at >86. If those that did, only Tendulkar had a higher average.

Yes, it would make sense if we are only discussing whether Gilchrist makes an ODI XI of his contemporaries. We are not.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Dhoni wasn't single handedly 'losing' us matches imo, as a lower order bat playing with such a gun top order it's pretty hard to do that.

I was basing this of my own limited viewing of him. Seemed to come in with good platforms and suck the life out of the innings, or come in with a high run rate needed and just make things worse. Possibly a bit of confirmation bias at play too, I remember those innings more than the others.

I always thought Kulasekara was low key very good. Now I know why.

Underrated bowler. Swung the ball around corners at times, and accurate too.

 

[honestbharani]

Dhoni wasn't single handedly 'losing' us matches imo, as a lower order bat playing with such a gun top order it's pretty hard to do that.

But when the top order failed you could be sure he'd be there to suck the complete life out the remainder of the innings and leave it to others to play the aggressor. He'd play at an SR of 50 for the whole middle overs and the others would try to score quicker and get out. Then he'd biff 2-3 boundaries at the end to end up with a 70 odd SR or something. It was garbage cricket.

We nearly lost to Afghanistan when he did that - https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...s-india-28th-match-icc-cricket-world-cup-2019

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Full Scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st ODI 2017/18 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

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WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 4th ODI at North Sound, July 02, 2017

Get cricket scorecard of 4th ODI, WI vs IND, WI v IND 2017 at Sir Vivian Richards Stadium, North Sound, Antigua dated July 02, 2017.

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ENG vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 3rd ODI at Leeds, July 17, 2018

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd ODI, ENG vs IND, India tour of England 2018 at Headingley, Leeds dated July 17, 2018.

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BAN vs IND Cricket Scorecard, Final at Dubai, September 28, 2018

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Definitely more examples out there.

Lets see:

1. Game vs Afghanistan - started slow and then got out trying to accelerate - what Rohit's failures often were 2015-2019 except he did not waste a powerplay. To call it game losing is silly. Bad innings, sure. But players are allowed that once in a while.

2. Game Vs England 2018 – Game was pretty much gone given our lower order once we lost 4 wickets for next to nothing. Could have gone for the slog earlier but again, not even the worst knock on the scorecard. Rohit’s failure was even worse given he wasted the powerplay chasing 325.

3. Game Vs NZ 2017 - Similar to game against Afghanistan. Started slow and got out before he could accelerate.

4. Game Vs WI, 2017 - Definitely his fault. When you take it that deep batting that slow, it is your responsibility to win it and he failed.

5. Game Vs Eng 2018 – Again similar to 1 and 3.

6. Game Vs BD 2018 – Stuck at 54 in a game where avg run rate was 4.5 and got out in 36th. I don’t think his SR cost us anything there.

See, if the point is, he should have at least been able to rotate singles more and been better, I agree. But there is no guarantee that another keeper would have been any better than MSD overall and given the fact that we kept playing 3 #11s and sometimes 4, there were cases where it was obvious by the time he walked in game was already over. Sure, he could have kept his SR higher but I don't see how the results of many of these games would have changed had he played differently. Games like the Windies one and the England 2019 WC games are definitely very very bad and he must be blamed for that but to say he single handedly lost India many games is stupid, no matter how you slice and dice these stats.

You just cannot prove lies.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Dhoni wasn't single handedly 'losing' us matches imo, as a lower order bat playing with such a gun top order it's pretty hard to do that.

But when the top order failed you could be sure he'd be there to suck the complete life out the remainder of the innings and leave it to others to play the aggressor. He'd play at an SR of 50 for the whole middle overs and the others would try to score quicker and get out. Then he'd biff 2-3 boundaries at the end to end up with a 70 odd SR or something. It was garbage cricket.

We nearly lost to Afghanistan when he did that - https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...s-india-28th-match-icc-cricket-world-cup-2019

Full Scorecard of England vs India 2nd ODI 2018 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

Complete Scorecard of England vs India 2nd ODI 2018, India tour of England only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of England vs India 2nd ODI Online

www.espncricinfo.com

Full Scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st ODI 2017/18 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

Complete Scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st ODI 2017/18, India v New Zealand only on ESPNcricinfo.com. Find the complete scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st ODI Online

www.espncricinfo.com

WI vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 4th ODI at North Sound, July 02, 2017

Get cricket scorecard of 4th ODI, WI vs IND, WI v IND 2017 at Sir Vivian Richards Stadium, North Sound, Antigua dated July 02, 2017.

www.espncricinfo.com

ENG vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 3rd ODI at Leeds, July 17, 2018

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd ODI, ENG vs IND, India tour of England 2018 at Headingley, Leeds dated July 17, 2018.

www.espncricinfo.com

BAN vs IND Cricket Scorecard, Final at Dubai, September 28, 2018

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Bangladesh vs India Final, cricket scorecard, Asia Cup 2018 dated September 28, 2018.

www.espncricinfo.com

Definitely more examples out there.

It's not QUITE as bad but I level the same criticism at Rohit. It was particularly evident in the World Cup a couple of times. At face value, his S/R looks good because once he motors past the 50-ish mark he goes big. The problem is that 50-75 often comes in something like 85-120 balls (not exact stats here but just a figure) or worse.
Then he'll get his next 50 in like 20 balls.
But by that point, the damage could already have been done.

 

[srbhkshk]

It's not QUITE as bad but I level the same criticism at Rohit. It was particularly evident in the World Cup a couple of times. At face value, his S/R looks good because once he motors past the 50-ish mark he goes big. The problem is that 50-75 often comes in something like 85-120 balls (not exact stats here but just a figure) or worse.

What?

 

[ankitj]

Yes, but the 57 here was much better in reality than the 60. Far more valuable than a 3 point difference in average would suggest.

The point is that average in ODIs can be very misleading. So comparing two players averages as if its a 1 to 1 is silly, especially if they play different positions and their eras didnt even fully overlap.

Over entire careers they are not that silly. There is some margin of error but on the whole a low average means lot of dismissal for low scores. It's not the only thing that matters but people are talking here as if average doesn't matter at all.

 

[srbhkshk]

Yes, but the 57 here was much better in reality than the 60. Far more valuable than a 3 point difference in average would suggest.

The point is that average in ODIs can be very misleading. So comparing two players averages as if its a 1 to 1 is silly, especially if they play different positions and their eras didnt even fully overlap.

So you look at Strike Rate. not RPI.

 

[honestbharani]

OS yet to explain why RPI is a better measure than averages, if averages are prone to problems due to batting position and era etc.

Its not that difficult to figure out that almost every factor that impacts batting average will also impact RPI coz they are basically the same except RP does not factor the times you have lost your wicket and the times you have not. In LO games, RPI is an useless metric, full of more holes than even batting average.

 

[trundler]

Really though, David Miller is immensely flattered by his stats. Matthews too. Hope averages 50 but you'd still call him a player with some issues.

 

[vcs]

In case of Hope, he slots in there as the cake because the rest of the WI lineup is full of icing. In a more balanced batting lineup, people would definitely moan about his SR.

 

[honestbharani]

Exactly why ODI stats without context are mostly pointless. Even more so than in tests.

 

[Burgey]

Why the batting records of ODI batsmen from 2010 onwards can't be trusted is evidenced by the fact that the third most successful seam bowler was Perera, who averaged 32. Comparing that to the 2000s and 90s, you had Ntini and Srinath who averaged 25 and 28 respectively.

It’s not really they can’t be trusted as much as they need to be contextualised, isn’t it? but then they all do, in all formats.

 

[Burgey]

Lets see:

1. Game vs Afghanistan - started slow and then got out trying to accelerate - what Rohit's failures often were 2015-2019 except he did not waste a powerplay. To call it game losing is silly. Bad innings, sure. But players are allowed that once in a while.

2. Game Vs England 2018 – Game was pretty much gone given our lower order once we lost 4 wickets for next to nothing. Could have gone for the slog earlier but again, not even the worst knock on the scorecard. Rohit’s failure was even worse given he wasted the powerplay chasing 325.

3. Game Vs NZ 2017 - Similar to game against Afghanistan. Started slow and got out before he could accelerate.

4. Game Vs WI, 2017 - Definitely his fault. When you take it that deep batting that slow, it is your responsibility to win it and he failed.

5. Game Vs Eng 2018 – Again similar to 1 and 3.

6. Game Vs BD 2018 – Stuck at 54 in a game where avg run rate was 4.5 and got out in 36th. I don’t think his SR cost us anything there.

See, if the point is, he should have at least been able to rotate singles more and been better, I agree. But there is no guarantee that another keeper would have been any better than MSD overall and given the fact that we kept playing 3 #11s and sometimes 4, there were cases where it was obvious by the time he walked in game was already over. Sure, he could have kept his SR higher but I don't see how the results of many of these games would have changed had he played differently. Games like the Windies one and the England 2019 WC games are definitely very very bad and he must be blamed for that but to say he single handedly lost India many games is stupid, no matter how you slice and dice these stats.

You just cannot prove lies.

I don’t see how these matches at the later stages of his career reallydetract from him though? You could equally pull digs out from earlier in his career where he slaughtered sides. If the point is he played on a bit too long, then I’d agree with you, but he’s not the first and won’t be the last to do that. And I really don’t see how it detracts from his legacy. I think he’s being marked pretty hard here tbh

 

[_00_deathscar]

What?

Maybe not 50-75 but he REALLY takes his time to get going.
He was striking at late 50s to 60s for a few games and taking up strike when we were already chasing a ridiculous/tough total at times, with one wicket gone.
His overall S/R might be 85 or something, but he doesn't consistently strike at that. Once he goes big his S/R goes nuts.
Whereas someone like Kohli (and Sachin for that matter) generally strike consistently better throughout their innings. They maybe don't have that final gear to go 60 from 20 or something insane like that, but you would rarely ever find them at 30 (52).

 

[srbhkshk]

We know he takes his time to get going, it's fine for an opener and what makes his partnership with Dhawan works. He does not bat at a SR of 50-60 till his 50 though, that's just not true and he bats faster than that plenty of times.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Maybe not 50-75 but he REALLY takes his time to get going.
He was striking at late 50s to 60s for a few games and taking up strike when we were already chasing a ridiculous/tough total at times, with one wicket gone.
His overall S/R might be 85 or something, but he doesn't consistently strike at that. Once he goes big his S/R goes nuts.
Whereas someone like Kohli (and Sachin for that matter) generally strike consistently better throughout their innings. They maybe don't have that final gear to go 60 from 20 or something insane like that, but you would rarely ever find them at 30 (52).

Ganguly was similar. so was Hayden. Most openers operate at that sort of tempo.

 

[honestbharani]

Ganguly and Hayden are not playing in this era though.

 

[Dan]

I kinda got the feeling that around that period from 2016-17ish onwards, Dhoni was still trying to follow the same formula he'd always used to dominate chases when he really needed to pivot somewhat in acknowledgment that he wasn't the player he once was.

Like, over the eight or nine years prior the idea of Dhoni getting out for 25 (50) in a chase was borderline unthinkable; he'd do that hard work early on and had the skill to make the most of it. As he started declining, a number of those innings started ending at that hard work phase. And, if you're taking the time to get in and regularly not capitalising on it, they're objectively terrible innings. And even worse, they're memorably terrible in the way Parthiv Patel coming out and getting castled for 10 (16) as India slides to inevitable defeat / is saved by Ravi isn't.

Don't get me wrong, if I were a captain or selector or something I'd still prefer Dhoni Dhoni-ing at a lower success rate than the past over Dinesh Karthik trying to bat like Dhoni - and it should no way invalidate his legacy as a ridiculously good ODI batsman - but there were some pretty terrible contributions late in his career. There's a point at which you become a victim of your own expectations tbh

 

[harsh.ag]

There is something to be said about Aussie players retiring/being-nudged at the right time. It's a better culture. Ponting's the only anomaly. Clarke retired too soon though. It was kind of a "the establishment celebrated him into it" retirement and seemed weird from afar.