Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[srbhkshk]

And if you keep pasting the ICC rankings graph, which shows relative rakning with peers, you may find Viv Richards is as good allrounder as Kapil Dev.

That's a 100 point difference in peak, how is that "as good"?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yep, many do the mistake of rating ODI players by their averages while ignoring other crucial aspects like SR, ER etc. Mathews has one of the most misleading batting averages in ODIs.

In the last 5 years, when SL has been a thoroughly mediocre side, there is a common theme which I remember many times when they play India.

After setting up a total which would need SL to score run a ball from the beginning, India would quickly reduce them to 50/3 or something and then Mathews would quietly score 80 off 100 making no attempt to help the team cross the line. Impactless ODI batsman.

Kallis takes the cake in this aspect though. Unlike Mathews, he at least had a great lower order. Would quietly play dot balls after dot balls, building up the required RR, while the likes of Pollock, Klusener and Boucher would sit in the pavilion thinking what the heck is going on.

Neithe Kallis nor Mathews should anywhere be in reckoning for any ATG ODI team attempting to win matches against another ATG ODI team.

2 of the most irritating expert selections in most of the alltime ODI 11s

1. Kallis -Because they feel sorry for him not getting a selection in the All time Test team. But what they are forgetting is Kallis is capable of winning matches single handedly... for the opposition. And there are many better options.

2. Shane Warne - Why do we need 2 specialist spinners in a team? Saqlain or Murali will be there anyway. I think its a diplomatic choice, they dont have the guts to select only one from the Warne-Murali duo. Warne above Donald / Garner / Waqar.. is beyond logic.

 

[Migara]

Kapil batted at 7 and 8 for the majority of his ODI career. He averaged about 25 in those positions, at a SR of about 92.

No one in this era (78-94) goes anywhere near matching Kapil's avg/SR combo as a number 7 in ODIs. He was THE MAN when it came to coming in late in an innings and hitting out from ball 1. Saying he fails when it comes to impact is ludicrous.

ODI batting at 6 and 7 Kapil era

WRT his bowling, his economy rate in his era (78-94) was lower than Wasim, Imran, Walsh and within half a run per over of Ambrose and Hadlee.

ODI bowling Kapil era

So you've got a guy who was the elite in his era, capable of batting at 7 and doing huge damage. He STILL sits top 20 in terms of career SR of guys who have played 100 plus ODIs. No one from earlier eras comes close:

Strike rates, 100 plus ODIs

And you have a guy who is a legit front line bowler with an economy rate equivalent of the great quicks of his era. What more does the bloke have to do?

The issue is you only pick the stat you want to pick to show Kapil is superior. We are discussing a team, so we don't need to compare player - vs player, rather we compare player combos vs player combos. That is why we suggest Dhoni + and all rounder opening has better results than Gilchrist + Bevan.

Now picking on stats, you compare only ER when it is convenient, but totally refrain from mentioning relatively woeful bowling strike rate of Kapil, which is about 9 balls per wicket higher than the elite bowlers, and 15 more than that of Waqar. So No, Kapil was not an elite bowler of his generation.

Once again when it comes to 6/7 batting, you only pick on strike rates, totally refraining from mentioning batting averages. You ahve people like Azhar averaging 70 odd with SR of 100+ at the same position. If you re qualify the results 5 - 7 batting positions, and more than 20 innings played Kapil only makes the middle of the list according to averages. With the bat once again he does not qualify as an elite. Being able to slog a few doesn't make a batsman elite.

 

[srbhkshk]

Stop arguing against a strawman, no one claims Kapil is the best of best as either a batsman or a bowler. (Even if his peak rating of #1 as a bowler and #6 as a batsman might suggest otherwise). He is a combo package in himself, is a good bowler and superbly fitted to bat 7 or 8 and a remarkable fielder as well.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

The issue is you only pick the stat you want to pick to show Kapil is superior. We are discussing a team, so we don't need to compare player - vs player, rather we compare player combos vs player combos. That is why we suggest Dhoni + and all rounder opening has better results than Gilchrist + Bevan.

Now picking on stats, you compare only ER when it is convenient, but totally refrain from mentioning relatively woeful bowling strike rate of Kapil, which is about 9 balls per wicket higher than the elite bowlers, and 15 more than that of Waqar. So No, Kapil was not an elite bowler of his generation.

Once again when it comes to 6/7 batting, you only pick on strike rates, totally refraining from mentioning batting averages. You ahve people like Azhar averaging 70 odd with SR of 100+ at the same position. If you re qualify the results 5 - 7 batting positions, and more than 20 innings played Kapil only makes the middle of the list according to averages. With the bat once again he does not qualify as an elite. Being able to slog a few doesn't make a batsman elite.

No one said he was Elite with bat.

 

[Migara]

I said 4 ATG + 1 ATVG
Kapil's bowling is equivalent of Jayasuriya batting if not better.

And this was the original argument you made. You come back and paste Jayasuriya vs Kapil all rounder graphs. That is intellectually dishonest. Kapil's bowling was steady, while Jayasuriya's batting was explosive and inconsistent. And I don't know how you can make equivalences on two such players. Heckw e are not even sold on Lara vs Tendulkar on batting, let alone a batting vs bowling comparison.

 

[Migara]

Kapil's graph is obviously looking better there. Above 500 for a long time. Viv only breached it occasionally.

Excatly, and we know what was the state of Viv's off breaks were.

And ICC ranking just looks at a running average of peers during a small time period. It doesn't take things in to account over careers. Obviously it doesn't show the full picture.

 

[harsh.ag]

Admitting that you have gone on to try and denigrate Kapil for no reason other than to refute PFK's wrong statement does not make you look good to anyone else, Migara. If you could keep your emotions in check when an SL player is wrongly posted about, everyone would be better off, including yourself.

 

[Migara]

And of course his argument of Saqlain is a better ODI bowler than Murali falls flat on the face when ICC rankings are used. So mate, be consistent in what your assesment tools.

 

[Migara]

Admitting that you have gone on to try and denigrate Kapil for no reason other than to refute PFK's wrong statement does not make you look good to anyone else, Migara. If you could keep your emotions in check when an SL player is wrongly posted about, everyone would be better off, including yourself.

I have nothing against a SL player being targeted here. I made my argument of Klusener > Kapil or Shakib > Kapil much before the Jayasuriya issue. I have given my reasons for it, and PFK wanted to dance with the selective stats. I am letting him dance with his own measures.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

And this was the original argument you made. You come back and paste Jayasuriya vs Kapil all rounder graphs. That is intellectually dishonest. Kapil's bowling was steady, while Jayasuriya's batting was explosive and inconsistent. And I don't know how you can make equivalences on two such players. Heckw e are not even sold on Lara vs Tendulkar on batting, let alone a batting vs bowling comparison.

But you know who is greater between Murali and Insy.. right?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I have nothing against a SL player being targeted here. I made my argument of Klusener > Kapil or Shakib > Kapil much before the Jayasuriya issue. I have given my reasons for it, and PFK wanted to dance with the selective stats. I am letting him dance with his own measures.

I didnt claim, these graphs are ultimate proofs of greatness, (neither is plain averages ). But they are not useless either.

 

[h_hurricane]

Both Kapil and Sanath had a negative difference of 4 between their batting and bowling averages. Both were hardly great in that aspect.

Kapil scored 95 runs per 100 balls though while giving away only 62. Sanath on the other hand scored 91 and gave away 80.

95/62 vs 91/80 is too much of a stark difference for me. On raw figures, Kapil is better, just like Klusener's is better than Kapil.

Having said this, Jayasuriya had a humongous ODI career. 13K+ runs and 300+ wickets is truly awesome. That is impressive longevity. He definitely gets more points in that aspect as compared to Kapil, just like Kapil getting more points over Klusener in longevity.

Would I have Jayasuriya in my ATG team ? Not quite. And the reason has nothing to do with Kapil. Opening is a pivotal position in ODIs, I need an ATG bat for that(or someone like Gilchrist which opens up a middle order slot for another ATG bat).

 

[srbhkshk]

To be fair, you can have Jaya in the ATG team, I think his stats are better once he was given the licence to be what we know him as.

 

[trundler]

He was a lower order hack for his first 120 odd games wasn't he? Taking that long to find your game will nerf your stats for sure. And I don't think Klusener is the best ODI AR ever (or even in the top 5 and hence better than Kapil), I think his batting is a better fit to #7 but maybe that's just me being too strict about batting positions and such.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Not many People consider Lara for opening..dont know why

 

[h_hurricane]

I think that can be said about many players. Sachin's stats improved when he became an opener. Same for Rohit, Mark Waugh etc. A gifted player once given an opportunity is good enough to cash on it.

I also believe Kapil's average would have been better than 23 if he would have batted up in the order. Not close to Jayasuriya though.

 

[stephen]

Not many People consider Lara for opening..dont know why

He doesn't offer a second skill.

 

[srbhkshk]

Sachin - Lara opening together with Viv to follow is worth it, I'd take that team even if it was losing 10/10, not that it actually would lose much.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

He doesn't offer a second skill.

With Sachin, Viv and Dhoni, that is not needed at all.