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Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
yeah, people confusing Imran and Kapil's test careers with their ODI careers.

There was nowhere near as big a gap between their ODI bowling as was between their test bowling. Imran also gained by having Wasim on his side since the mid 80s. After the 87 world cup Imran's ODI bowling wasn't as good anymore either and he was concentrating much more on the batting since 89 as well (when Waqar debuted).
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Migara said:
1. I would have Shakib in a blink of an eye. Proper batsman, proper spinner. That will strengthen batting without compromising the bowling. On other hand if you have a Jayasuriya or A Shane Watson opening the batting and doing 5th bowlers work, you's pick four out and out attacking bowlers in your side with a sixth bowler (Sachin fits the bill nicely).

2. If you are worried with RPI, then Shakib takes the cake without any issues.

3. Selecting Kapil infact compromises batting instead of selecting someone like Kallis, who has similar bowling capabilities, but a solid #3. Shaun Pollock can do the same at #8.

If I wanted to make a World XI I'd go for

Jayasuriya / Shane Watson
Tendulkar
Richards (c)
Kohli
AB DeVilliers
Dhoni (wk)
Klusener
Pollock
Murali
Garner / Wasim
McGrath

line up. Klusener nicely fits in that lineup which has quite a number of bowlers to share 5th bowlers duties.
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Kapil at 7 weakens the batting I agree, if you have 4 proper tail enders coming after him. He is the perfect fit though, if you have Wasim after him.

Jayasuriya opening though, weakens the batting even further. You are looking at a pivotal batting position in ODIs, where some one is expected to turn up every single match.

For a no.7, you would be coming to the crease in the slog overs most of the time.

Watson is actually a great fit as an opener, under-rated as a cricketer imo.

Kallis is not in Kapil's class as a bowler. With the bat, he was the ultimate momentum sucker. Was a master in making a difficult chase look like an impossible one. Or a reasonable chase into a difficult one.

You still have a great team though.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Pap Finn Keighl said:
I said 4 ATG + 1 ATVG
Kapil's bowling is equivalent of Jayasuriya batting if not better.
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I am trying to see how many matches Kapil won single handedly with the ball. Heck even Jayasuriya has done it few times with the ball and many times with the bat. Kapil as only taken 4+ wickets in 4 times in 225 matches. Jayasuriya has hammered 38 centuries in 445 matches he played. Even with the ball Jayasuriya has 12 instances of 4+ wickets.

Kapil fails when it comes to consistency to Shakib, Pollock, Klusener and Imran
Kapil fails when it comes to impact to Jayasuriya or even Afridi

Very simple, he doesn't belong on either characteristics for a ATG ODI XI.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Migara said:
I am trying to see how many matches Kapil won single handedly with the ball. Heck even Jayasuriya has done it few times with the ball and many times with the bat. Kapil as only taken 4+ wickets in 4 times in 225 matches. Jayasuriya has hammered 38 centuries in 445 matches he played. Even with the ball Jayasuriya has 12 instances of 4+ wickets.

Kapil fails when it comes to consistency to Shakib, Pollock, Klusener and Imran
Kapil fails when it comes to impact to Jayasuriya or even Afridi

Very simple, he doesn't belong on either characteristics for a ATG ODI XI.
Click to expand...
Did Jayasuriya actually score 38 hundreds ? Cricinfo says it is 28.

Also, it is dump to say Kapil had less impact than Afridi. We are talking about a cricketer who played lead roles in 1983 WC and 1985 WCC putting in great shows with bat and ball at the right time.

On a side note relating Jaya and Kapil, one of the first things I remembered in cricket as a kid was Jayasuriya being a victim of a Kapil Dev hat-trick, in yet another impactful performance, Asia Cup final 1990-91.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Jayasuriya definitely a bigger match winner than Kapil, very little doubt. A better all rounder than Kapil in ODIs for sure. That does not necessarily mean he would get a spot in the XI ahead of Kapil, of course. For a #7 with 5th bowling duties, Kapil is probably a better choice because his bowling was far better and Jayasuriya's batting would not be as important there since Kapil exceeds him in SR.
 
Pap Finn Keighl

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Migara said:
I am trying to see how many matches Kapil won single handedly with the ball. Heck even Jayasuriya has done it few times with the ball and many times with the bat. Kapil as only taken 4+ wickets in 4 times in 225 matches. Jayasuriya has hammered 38 centuries in 445 matches he played. Even with the ball Jayasuriya has 12 instances of 4+ wickets.

Kapil fails when it comes to consistency to Shakib, Pollock, Klusener and Imran
Kapil fails when it comes to impact to Jayasuriya or even Afridi

Very simple, he doesn't belong on either characteristics for a ATG ODI XI.
Click to expand...
By that logic, Sachin is a better all rounder than Imran, Kapil or Kallis.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Jayasuriya was a champion ODI player and many have him partnering Tendulkar in their AT XIs. He reliably picked up wickets and didn't give too many runs away in the process, though he wasn't a strike bowler. He was a gun batsman though who was better than his raw stats suggest. He was a big part of the reason Gilchrist did what he did in ODI cricket as well.

So for impact on the way the game is played, Jayasuriya was one of the most important ODI cricketers in history.

But then Kapil basically made cricket famous and popular in India which has had the largest impact on cricket since Kerry Packer created world series cricket. Unfortunately for India, Kapil never really inspired a generation of fast bowlers like Imran did for Pakistan so his actual impact on the way the game was played was less than Jayasuriya's.

Still, both men are good options for an ATXI, but in different places in the order. I'd still prefer Pollock or Klusener for the number 7 role if I'm going to pick a bowling all rounder. A batting all rounder and I'll take Symonds (And with Tendulkar and Viv in the XI, Symonds would be enough bowling, especially if you picked Jayasuriya to open and Dhoni to bat 6).
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Migara said:
I am trying to see how many matches Kapil won single handedly with the ball. Heck even Jayasuriya has done it few times with the ball and many times with the bat. Kapil as only taken 4+ wickets in 4 times in 225 matches. Jayasuriya has hammered 38 centuries in 445 matches he played. Even with the ball Jayasuriya has 12 instances of 4+ wickets.

Kapil fails when it comes to consistency to Shakib, Pollock, Klusener and Imran
Kapil fails when it comes to impact to Jayasuriya or even Afridi

Very simple, he doesn't belong on either characteristics for a ATG ODI XI.
Click to expand...
Kapil batted at 7 and 8 for the majority of his ODI career. He averaged about 25 in those positions, at a SR of about 92.

No one in this era (78-94) goes anywhere near matching Kapil's avg/SR combo as a number 7 in ODIs. He was THE MAN when it came to coming in late in an innings and hitting out from ball 1. Saying he fails when it comes to impact is ludicrous.

ODI batting at 6 and 7 Kapil era

WRT his bowling, his economy rate in his era (78-94) was lower than Wasim, Imran, Walsh and within half a run per over of Ambrose and Hadlee.

ODI bowling Kapil era

So you've got a guy who was the elite in his era, capable of batting at 7 and doing huge damage. He STILL sits top 20 in terms of career SR of guys who have played 100 plus ODIs. No one from earlier eras comes close:

Strike rates, 100 plus ODIs

And you have a guy who is a legit front line bowler with an economy rate equivalent of the great quicks of his era. What more does the bloke have to do?
 
Pap Finn Keighl

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Kapil has a reputation of top strike bowler and dangerous lower order batsman. In both disciplines he was more valuable than what the averages suggest, a combination of Marshall and Klusner.. more or less. As an ODI player, Only Imran earned that levels of respect in both disciplines other than Kapil.
 
Burgey

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
_00_deathscar said:
Be a chubby big boned South African, apparently.
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Or be Angelo Mathews, according to someone in this thread.

Mathews > Kapil as an ODI player is the most ridiculous non-Sunilz assertion on CW ever. Just tragic. Embarrassing. Mathews deadset Is mediocrity redefined.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Yep, many do the mistake of rating ODI players by their averages while ignoring other crucial aspects like SR, ER etc. Mathews has one of the most misleading batting averages in ODIs.

In the last 5 years, when SL has been a thoroughly mediocre side, there is a common theme which I remember many times when they play India.

After setting up a total which would need SL to score run a ball from the beginning, India would quickly reduce them to 50/3 or something and then Mathews would quietly score 80 off 100 making no attempt to help the team cross the line. Impactless ODI batsman.

Kallis takes the cake in this aspect though. Unlike Mathews, he at least had a great lower order. Would quietly play dot balls after dot balls, building up the required RR, while the likes of Pollock, Klusener and Boucher would sit in the pavilion thinking what the heck is going on.

Neithe Kallis nor Mathews should anywhere be in reckoning for any ATG ODI team attempting to win matches against another ATG ODI team.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
h_hurricane said:
Did Jayasuriya actually score 38 hundreds ? Cricinfo says it is 28.

Also, it is dump to say Kapil had less impact than Afridi. We are talking about a cricketer who played lead roles in 1983 WC and 1985 WCC putting in great shows with bat and ball at the right time.

On a side note relating Jaya and Kapil, one of the first things I remembered in cricket as a kid was Jayasuriya being a victim of a Kapil Dev hat-trick, in yet another impactful performance, Asia Cup final 1990-91.
Click to expand...
Obviously typo. Afridi was most of the time trash, but when he fired with ball or bat, he was miles ahead of anything we have seen on a cricket field. Saying Afridi was not impactful is a big fat lie. However he was not consistent, and I fully agree with it.
 
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