Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[srbhkshk]

Afridi averaged less than Kapil while debuting 20 years later. Kapil was once ranked the #6 batsman in the world, not sure how many handy lower order sloggers manage that.

 

[h_hurricane]

He was a bowling AR in ODIs. He scored 17 runs per match but gave away 31. Failure to adjust for era makes him look like an atg bowler and a handy lower order slogger. Adjusting makes him look like a decent bowler and a very handy lower order slogger. I know who I am picking.

Why stop at a batting average in the low 20s if you are making this argument? If he had averaged 10 or 15 would you still be making it? How about if he had averaged 1 at a SR of 150? He would be far better in your calculation this way.

There is a threshold below which this parallel becomes increasingly unreasonable. It probably sits closer to batting average/RPI than runs per game compared to expected runs given away. Whatever the threshold though, he is a long way below it.

Your 4.4/120 example is actually not too dissimilar to Afridi, who was not much better than a handy player cos his averages stunk.

You could call the threshold as "batting average > bowling average", without applying a limit for either of these averages. In the period which I considered, which is the decade of 80s, he averaged 26.81 with the bat at a SR of 101.91. He averaged 26.25 with the ball at an ER of 3.68. So he ticks the box for that criteria.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I had a look at Afridi as well. In the decade of 2000s, he had a bowling record of 30.30/4.56 and a batting record of 22.79/115.08. A good 8 runs of negative difference between batting and bowling average. Nowhere as good as Kapil.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

4.4/120 example was created assuming Kapil's ER and SR would go up in a different era by 20%. Afridi not just falls short in the averages by a huge margin, he falls short of ER/SR by a decent margin as well.

 

[srbhkshk]

This thing of Kapil just being an Afridi with the bat is actually repeated a lot, here is a comparison of these two guys, Kapil is distinctively better than Afridi as a batsman and his worst (the steady decline at career end) is about the same as Afridi's average -

ICC Player Rankings

And here's the bowling comparison with Kapil being massively superior again -

ICC Player Rankings

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

For Majority of 80s, Kapil was the highest ranked ODI batsman for India.

 

[Malcolm]

TBH, I think Hardik with the bat is very similar to Kapil in both MO and stats. Kapil just did it for 4x time.

 

[h_hurricane]

Watching Kapil in action was always entertaining. Just finished highlights of below match.

A great performance with the ball upfront, on the way to a 4 wicket haul, dismissing Border,Jones and Waugh. The Waugh dismissal was a great yorker. Contributed with a catch and a run out as well. Single-handedly restricted a potential 270 score to 235.

Then came to the crease with a required RR of 7, in a chase considered as tricky those days, killed it with a few hefty blows before getting dismissed once the damage has been done.

My version of the dream cricketer.

Apologies for the excessive fanboyism. But the only cricketer I will be a fanboy of, I swear.

 

[smash84]

He was a bowling AR in ODIs. He scored 17 runs per match but gave away 31. Failure to adjust for era makes him look like an atg bowler and a handy lower order slogger. Adjusting makes him look like a decent bowler and a very handy lower order slogger. I know who I am picking.

Why stop at a batting average in the low 20s if you are making this argument? If he had averaged 10 or 15 would you still be making it? How about if he had averaged 1 at a SR of 150? He would be far better in your calculation this way.

There is a threshold below which this parallel becomes increasingly unreasonable. It probably sits closer to batting average/RPI than runs per game compared to expected runs given away. Whatever the threshold though, he is a long way below it.

Your 4.4/120 example is actually not too dissimilar to Afridi, who was not much better than a handy player cos his averages stunk.

Come on, Afridi sucked as a batsman, and definitely not as good as Kapil as a bowler either. Kapil would open the bowling and bowl at the death.

 

[honestbharani]

Also a brilliant allround fielder who can man the slips, inside the ring or be awesome at the deep. Did all those in the same game too most of the time. If Symonds fielding counts, why won't Kapil's?


And I really do not understand where this theory that Gilly is some kind of ATG opener in ODI cricket is coming from. Sure, as a keeper batsman package, I see he is one of the greats but still nowhere close to ATG for me.

 

[Bolo.]

You could call the threshold as "batting average > bowling average", without applying a limit for either of these averages. In the period which I considered, which is the decade of 80s, he averaged 26.81 with the bat at a SR of 101.91. He averaged 26.25 with the ball at an ER of 3.68. So he ticks the box for that criteria.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I had a look at Afridi as well. In the decade of 2000s, he had a bowling record of 30.30/4.56 and a batting record of 22.79/115.08. A good 8 runs of negative difference between batting and bowling average. Nowhere as good as Kapil.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

4.4/120 example was created assuming Kapil's ER and SR would go up in a different era by 20%. Afridi not just falls short in the averages by a huge margin, he falls short of ER/SR by a decent margin as well.

Im not bringing Afridi up because he deserves serious comparison to Kapil. He just happens to match your stated figures. We know Afridis averages are garbage. The worse they are, the better it illustrates the point that your simplification into SRs is devoid of meaning in the absence of averages. Afridi got panned for his bad batting average in particular by everyone not from Pakistan, because people recognise that his average is too poor for the SR to make that big a difference. Kapil gets a lot less flack though despite having the same average.

This chopping careers up into whatever size is convienient really is no good. And its particularly pointless here, when you are comparing him to a guy who played longer and in a whole lot more matches than him. Its particularly prevelant with 80s ARs. I guess it started with Bothams lopsided career, and everyone figured it was now a fair game approach to defend whoever their favourite AR was.

At what average would you stop defending Kapil on account of his SR? Would a sub 20 average be acceptable? That is less than 4 runs away.

 

[ankitj]

Watching Kapil in action was always entertaining. Just finished highlights of below match.

A great performance with the ball upfront, on the way to a 4 wicket haul, dismissing Border,Jones and Waugh. The Waugh dismissal was a great yorker. Contributed with a catch and a run out as well. Single-handedly restricted a potential 270 score to 235.

Then came to the crease with a required RR of 7, in a chase considered as tricky those days, killed it with a few hefty blows before getting dismissed once the damage has been done.

My version of the dream cricketer.

Apologies for the excessive fanboyism. But the only cricketer I will be a fanboy of, I swear.

That's not highlight. That's half the game.

 

[stephen]

While a bowling average of 27 in ODIs was good without being great in the 80s, a batting average of 27 at a high strike rate to go with that was pretty damn awesome for the time. Kapil was certainly ahead of his time with the bat and counts as one of the few all rounders in contention for the number 7 spot in an AT ODI side. Probably only Klusener was definitively superior as a bowling all rounder.

 

[smash84]

While a bowling average of 27 in ODIs was good without being great in the 80s, a batting average of 27 at a high strike rate to go with that was pretty damn awesome for the time. Kapil was certainly ahead of his time with the bat and counts as one of the few all rounders in contention for the number 7 spot in an AT ODI side. Probably only Klusener was definitively superior as a bowling all rounder.

Klusener was really just special in the 1999 world cup, otherwise he wasn't that great over his career. Very low marks for longevity.

 

[TheJediBrah]

For tests, Pollocks returns correlate positively with his speed. Mcgraths returns correlate negatively. Sounds more like a statement of fact than a theory.

Not exactly. The correlation is a fact, but my hypothesis is that there is causation as well. There could be plenty of other factors affecting the relative effectiveness of the 2 bowlers over those time periods other than just bowling speed.

 

[stephen]

Klusener was really just special in the 1999 world cup, otherwise he wasn't that great over his career. Very low marks for longevity.

He still had a decent length ODI career (which seem to be shorter than test careers) and averaged 40 with the bat and under 30 with the ball. He was a gun.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It is a good point about the influence World Cup performances can have on a player's legacy. You hear talk of guys like Klusener and Symonds in ATG discussions more often than a Hussey, who flopped in World Cups.

 

[stephen]

It is a good point about the influence World Cup performances can have on a player's legacy. You hear talk of guys like Klusener and Symonds in ATG discussions more often than a Hussey, who flopped in World Cups.

I remember watching the 2007 world cup and Hussey was the biggest passenger. He literally never got a chance to bat because the rest of the side were too busy smashing all opposition.

2011 he had more chances.

 

[vcs]

Hussey was every bit as good as Bevan, and more explosive.

 

[vcs]

Actually, I should revise that. Bevan was a true freak and pioneer at those miracle chases and that "calculator-type" approach, which Dhoni and Kohli later perfected. Hussey would probably be better suited to setting a target and Bevan for resurrecting an innings, or executing a tough chase, so Bevan overall. Having that insurance policy when all seems lost is so valuable.

 

[honestbharani]

I am never too far away from putting in Hussey at 6 instead of Bevan in my ATG ODI XI. No need to explain, @vcs . Huss was an awesome ODI player and every bit as deserving to be in the conversation for an ATG XI. I actually think Huss was as good a finisher as Bevan, he just did not have the insurance of smaller targets and a great bowling attack that Bevan just about always had in ODIs.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Actually, I should revise that. Bevan was a true freak and pioneer at those miracle chases and that "calculator-type" approach, which Dhoni and Kohli later perfected. Hussey would probably be better suited to setting a target and Bevan for resurrecting an innings, or executing a tough chase, so Bevan overall. Having that insurance policy when all seems lost is so valuable.

very good. Hussey was definitely not quite Bevan. Bevan was truly special, but having said that I can definitely understand why modern fans would look back at his strike rate and think he's overrated. It's hard to really understand how good Bevan was without watching him regularly and seeing how he operated and won games.

I've said before that I think the difference between Hussey & Bevan in regards to the power-game is almost purely a result of their eras. If Bevan came in to the side when Hussey did he would likely have had the same sort of SR and power-hitting ability, and if Hussey debuted 10 years earlier he would have basically been Bevan, but possibly with varying ability.