Is Bumrah the best cricketer India has ever produced?

[PaulLennon]

Sorry but this hasn't been the case historically. Regardless of the conditions stereotyping (which also involves basically ignoring all the times people average in excess of 60 in India for a substantial amount of time), India was never the sort of dominant home side they were until the likes of Ashwin and Jadeja came through. You can clearly see this in their records since. Ashwin is absolutely vital there as the leading wicket taker and handy batter down the order.

You absolutely can use that logic with the other batters apart from Tendulkar because they all contribute less in general compared to a bowling AR like Ashwin or a bowler like Bumrah per game, and their general performances when put in context doesn't paint them as that much superior of a player as people want to believe here. Most of them can be said to have had easier batting conditions in general (2000 to early 2010s/weak attacks), so do we just ignore it for no reason? Tendulkar is the one exception because of his general longevity and performance across multiple eras, which can't be applied to anyone else. Everyone else is debatable.

Yup. Kumble etc were good in the 90s but teams used to draw series etc. It wasn't WIN EVERY series in more than a decade good.

Even 80s Windies and 00s Australia never did that.

 

[Smudge]

the reports will keep coming until he's banned

This aged well.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sorry but this hasn't been the case historically. Regardless of the conditions stereotyping (which also involves basically ignoring all the times people average in excess of 60 in India for a substantial amount of time), India was never the sort of dominant home side they were until the likes of Ashwin and Jadeja came through. You can clearly see this in their records since. Ashwin is absolutely vital there as the leading wicket taker and handy batter down the order.

You absolutely can use that logic with the other batters apart from Tendulkar because they all contribute less in general compared to a bowling AR like Ashwin or a bowler like Bumrah per game, and their general performances when put in context doesn't paint them as that much superior of a player as people want to believe here. Most of them can be said to have had easier batting conditions in general (2000 to early 2010s/weak attacks), so do we just ignore it for no reason? Tendulkar is the one exception because of his general longevity and performance across multiple eras, which can't be applied to anyone else. Everyone else is debatable.

We're coming at a similar conclusion from different angles. You're thinking "India's spin dominance at home has taken off = largely because of Ashwin", I'm thinking "Ashwin's great figures and performances = largely because of factors aligning for Indian spin dominance at home". Both have at least elements of truth it's about where you draw the line.

I see what you're saying about historical v now but other modern Indian spinners, especially Jadeja, show that it's not just Ashwin's existence that is making the difference

 

[honestbharani]

Did living in Australia teach Shri nothing?

He should have known where the line was.

He was busy headbutting it.

 

[Xix2565]

We're coming at a similar conclusion from different angles. You're thinking "India's spin dominance at home has taken off = largely because of Ashwin", I'm thinking "Ashwin's great figures and performances = largely because of factors aligning for Indian spin dominance at home". Both have at least elements of truth it's about where you draw the line.

I see what you're saying about historical v now but other modern Indian spinners, especially Jadeja, show that it's not just Ashwin's existence that is making the difference

You say this like any random player can turn up with a record like Ashwin's. This is like saying anyone can show up and bat like Steve Smith or bowl like Pat Cummins in Australia. Dominance at home isn't something to be taken for granted, nor is it as easy as some greats make it look like. His record vs other spinners in all his games played demonstrates that, as shown here, just before his 100th Test:

This is not the record of a player boosted by conditions. This is the record of a great player separating himself from the rest of the pack as great players normally do and so that should be acknowledged rather than ignored or distorted.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is not the record of a player boosted by condition

It definitely is to an extent though. Jadeja and Ashwin are exceptional, probably the best Indian spinners ever, but they're not so much better than those of the past that they're averaging 20 rather than 30.

It's subjective but IMO the biggest factor isn't the conditions, I'm not convinced they are that much more spin friendly now than they were in years past, if at all. I think it's the hopelessness of the visiting batsmen. Modern SENA bats in Asia are fish in a barrel, we've even seen it in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh at times. I don't think they've ever been worse at playing in these conditions. And the non SENA teams just aren't any good. Sri Lanka are a shadow of the side they were 10-25 years ago, Bangladesh and WI are **** and Pakistan don't even go to India.

It's clearly a combination of factors, not just "Ashwin is so good he's made all the difference"

 

[Xix2565]

It definitely is to an extent though. Jadeja and Ashwin are exceptional, probably the best Indian spinners ever, but they're not so much better than those of the past that they're averaging 20 rather than 30.

It's subjective but IMO the biggest factor isn't the conditions, I'm not convinced they are that much more spin friendly now than they were in years past, if at all. I think it's the hopelessness of the visiting batsmen. Modern SENA bats in Asia are fish in a barrel, we've even seen it in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh at times. I don't think they've ever been worse at playing in these conditions. And the non SENA teams just aren't any good. Sri Lanka are a shadow of the side they were 10-25 years ago, Bangladesh and WI are **** and Pakistan don't even go to India.

It's clearly a combination of factors, not just "Ashwin is so good he's made all the difference"

Literally shown to be the case by the pic I posted as far as Ashwin is concerned. I mean what else is he supposed to do here now? Beyblade his way through bats and pads?

I don't get this idea of "modern players are all bad for some sort of reason to justify the current debate I'm having". Might as well say "old players are all bad for the exact same thing as above". Equally as meaningful as the above, which is to say, not very. I'm not convinced you could put a past side up against this Indian attack in India and have them not be treated as badly as the recent tourists. You'd need Bradman at least.

So it's clearly a combination of factors that makes any player as good as they are right, then? I can use this to say any sort of player is overrated because they got a lot of help from the conditions they were playing on, is that right? Come on.

 

[Xix2565]

I mean since Ashwin's debut India have had the best overall, home and away Test records in general, over every other team. Which past Indian side can boast that? And it's only fair to credit some of that to Ashwin as he's the leading wicket taker.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Literally shown to be the case by the pic I posted as far as Ashwin is concerned. I mean what else is he supposed to do here now? Beyblade his way through bats and pads?

I don't get this idea of "modern players are all bad for some sort of reason to justify the current debate I'm having". Might as well say "old players are all bad for the exact same thing as above". Equally as meaningful as the above, which is to say, not very. I'm not convinced you could put a past side up against this Indian attack in India and have them not be treated as badly as the recent tourists. You'd need Bradman at least.

So it's clearly a combination of factors that makes any player as good as they are right, then? I can use this to say any sort of player is overrated because they got a lot of help from the conditions they were playing on, is that right? Come on.

I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion with the right information

SENA batsmen are definitely worse at handling Asian conditions than they were even 20 years ago for mine. Just from the games I've seen. That's not just about India, some very ordinary Sri Lanka and Bangladesh sides have taken games off touring SENA sides that they lose to by an innings when playing away

 

[TheJediBrah]

I mean since Ashwin's debut India have had the best overall, home and away Test records in general, over every other team. Which past Indian side can boast that? And it's only fair to credit some of that to Ashwin as he's the leading wicket taker.

No one's said not to credit Ashwin with some of that

 

[the big bambino]

its one thing for white people to say this **** but a brown guy drinking this piss says a lot about their insecurities

Hilarious you were bombing mods with reports and posting this bilge at the same time.

 

[Xix2565]

I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion with the right information

SENA batsmen are definitely worse at handling Asian conditions than they were even 20 years ago for mine. Just from the games I've seen. That's not just about India, some very ordinary Sri Lanka and Bangladesh sides have taken games off touring SENA sides that they lose to by an innings when playing away

SENA not automatically succeeding doesn't mean they've necessarily gotten worse though. It could just as easily mean that the home teams have gotten better at their own specialties. So what if they lose away in SENA by large margins, that's just demonstrating that they still have room to improve.

No one's said not to credit Ashwin with some of that

No one goes around suggesting anyone who's really successful has been lucky enough to have the right conditions and situations fall into place for them. Not to this extent.

 

[Coronis]

You say this like any random player can turn up with a record like Ashwin's. This is like saying anyone can show up and bat like Steve Smith or bowl like Pat Cummins in Australia. Dominance at home isn't something to be taken for granted, nor is it as easy as some greats make it look like. His record vs other spinners in all his games played demonstrates that, as shown here, just before his 100th Test: View attachment 40986

This is not the record of a player boosted by conditions. This is the record of a great player separating himself from the rest of the pack as great players normally do and so that should be acknowledged rather than ignored or distorted.

@Prince EWS
@Prince EWS
@Prince EWS

 

[TheJediBrah]

SENA not automatically succeeding doesn't mean they've necessarily gotten worse though.

They have, I've watched them. It's not a hypothesis I'm suggesting just based on stats or results

 

[TheJediBrah]

No one goes around suggesting anyone who's really successful has been lucky enough to have the right conditions and situations fall into place for them. Not to this extent.

Bro are you serious? They do all the time. Philander, Anderson, Warner, most 00s batsmen. Mostly it's warranted

One that doesn't get talked about but is one of the biggest beneficiaries is Herath

 

[honestbharani]

I love how much the cope is about Ashwin being an ATG test bowler and cricketer and among the top 5 Indian ATG cricketers.

Long may it continue.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Top 10 Indian players for me, factoring in all formats but higher weighting to Tests:

• Jadeja

 

[Xix2565]

They have, I've watched them. It's not a hypothesis I'm suggesting just based on stats or results

I mean if there's one thing I've learnt on this forum it is that people see what they want to see, nothing more. It's always focused on one aspect, rarely accounting for any of the other circumstances.

Bro are you serious? They do all the time. Philander, Anderson, Warner, most 00s batsmen. Mostly it's warranted

One that doesn't get talked about but is one of the biggest beneficiaries is Herath

Again, not to the extent shown by you and other people about Ashwin. Most of the time this is rarely warranted. Just refer back to the table I posted to see how far apart Ashwin is from his spinning peers.

And? I don't see what relevance this has here. Unless this is to say Herath is not among the best SL cricketers ever or such simply because of how much he benefited from his situation, and thus the same goes for Ashwin unlike the SL/IND batters who often got easier opposition and situations to play in without necessarily impacting the matches as much.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Again, not to the extent shown by you and other people about Ashwin.

Nope, completely the opposite. Ashwin gets way less of it compared to those guys I mentioned (and rightly so). I myself **** on the likes of Philander, Warner etc. waaaay more than I've ever done to Ashwin. And I used to for Anderson before he won me over the last few years. You're seeing through a massivelyt distorted lens if you really think Ashwin is getting harsher treatment in this regard.

And? I don't see what relevance this has here.

I don't see how you could possibly have missed the context of why I mentioned him

 

[ma1978]

I love how much the cope is about Ashwin being an ATG test bowler and cricketer and among the top 5 Indian ATG cricketers.

Long may it continue.

I think he’s an ATG test bowler and outside (just) the Indian top 5 ATG cricketers. Both these things are possible.