Is Adam Gilchrist an ATG Test Batsman?

[Daemon]

Genuinely surprised that this is even a debate

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Does this not distort the question to the point where Trent Boult is an ATG batsman because he's the best #11?

I don't think so, cause a no.11 isn't picked to make a batting impact usually but No.7 certainly is.. The No.7 is the finishing touch to a batting performance, how he bats with the tail , accelerates the game , rebuilds with an established batsman can often be the difference between winning and losing ..It takes a certain type of batsman to do this role and Gilchrist was an ATG at it.

 

[Owzat]

He's an ATG full stop, in no small part because of his batting. But he's not an ATG batsman.

agree, right up there if not top of batsman keepers but would very much depend how many you include - "ATG" much like "world class", ill defined in quantity

if you want to do such things, and even peers/same era is tough to pick out a top 10 batsmen at the same time that would probably be the way

 

[Owzat]

Come on man; do you really think Gilly is levels above someone like VVS or Pietersen or even Mathew Hayden on pure batting alone?

Laxman?!? do me a favour. probably as much a household name for the follow on turnaround as for any greatness.

averaged 40 vs Zimbabwe, 39 vs Bangladesh, 30.64 against England, under 40 in 19 knocks vs South Africa, and maybe significant, 51.60 at home, 42.49 away

Girly averaged 45+ home and away, near 46+ (45.88), only achilles heel of an opponent was India (27.90) and next lowest against ANY opponent 42.56 vs Sri Lanka

is a bit odd his record vs India, 2 hundreds in India, none down under, and seemed to dislike playing Kumble down under and who got him most times in his career, even Harbajingjang and Shewags, point being whilst spin isn't a dead art down under you would expect him to make more runs and be out to seamers more there

 

[capt_Luffy]

Laxman?!? do me a favour. probably as much a household name for the follow on turnaround as for any greatness.

averaged 40 vs Zimbabwe, 39 vs Bangladesh, 30.64 against England, under 40 in 19 knocks vs South Africa, and maybe significant, 51.60 at home, 42.49 away

Girly averaged 45+ home and away, near 46+ (45.88), only achilles heel of an opponent was India (27.90) and next lowest against ANY opponent 42.56 vs Sri Lanka

is a bit odd his record vs India, 2 hundreds in India, none down under, and seemed to dislike playing Kumble down under and who got him most times in his career, even Harbajingjang and Shewags, point being whilst spin isn't a dead art down under you would expect him to make more runs and be out to seamers more there

So basically, Laxman has a hole against England and Gilly has a bigger hole against India.... Those stats against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe if anything shows he didn't bashed any minnows, and he also averages over 34 in every country he played in, Gilly doesn't in two. Laxman has by far some of the Greatest innings in Test history, in some of the most valuable Indian victories and draws. I can't see too many captains taking Gilly in their team over VVS if he declares he won't keep.

 

[shortpitched713]

How do you define ATG? I personally think for the top batsmen it tends to be a bit more subjective in the first place. Outside of the Don, basically all the candidates average in mid to low 50s. "Matchwinning", and context dependent batting isn't really given much of a look at, nor is Strike Rate in all but the fringes. Instead we usually get into subjective feels and popularity contests.

So it comes down to definition.

My ATG top bowling tier of 6 has Hadlee, Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath, Murali, and Steyn (chronological order). I could add another tier of about 8 more, in which I'd include Imran, Garner, Wasim, Warne, Donald, Pollock, Ashwin, and Philander

My ATG top all-rounder tier of 7 has Miller, Sobers, Imran, Hadlee, Botham, S. Pollock, and Kallis.

Is an ATG bat top 10, 15, 20? To me, Gilchrist misses all of the previous marking posts, but is clearly top 50. I'd have him top 35, maybe as high as top 25 if I'm feeling generous to him.

If I have to come up with a top 15 of post-war bats who would form the top of the pyramid of value, with relatively negligible value difference between them I'd go with:

Hutton, Weekes, Harvey, Sobers, Barrington, Gavaskar, V. Richards, Miandad, Tendulkar, Lara, Hayden, Kallis, Sangakkara, S. Smith, Root.

Gilchrist is a very clear step below all of the above mentioned names, so I'd go with a clear no to this question.

I really like Gilchrist, his approach and him as an aggressive batsman. However, where he gains in aggression, situational batting, and match-winning capability in my eyes, he loses equally in having team situations in his favor a vast majority of the time when coming into bat, making things easier to get on top of an already largely beaten opposition. So to me, his average during most of his career probably overrated him slightly but after his late career decline ended up fairly reflecting his capability.



PS - Kind of a pet peeve, but polls which presuppose a particular answer, especially to a question like this that is very open to interesting debate, come across a bit blegh to me.

 

[ataraxia]

Does this not distort the question to the point where Trent Boult is an ATG batsman because he's the best #11?

He is though

 

[thierry henry]

More relevantly, Daniel Vettori was an ATG number 8 batsman, and his role at 8 was absolutely critical to his team (Vettori is not an ATG batsman just imho)

 

[ashley bach]

Any player that makes bowlers **** their pants has to be at least close to ATG.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Best averages by position (30 innings minimum - from How Stat!)

Openers - Herbert Sutcliffe & Khawaja
3 - Bradman
4 - Weekes
5 - Root
6 - Chanderpaul
7 - De Kock
8 - Vettori
9 - Ian Smith
10 - Lillee
11 - Boult

NZ 3
Aus 3
WI 2
England 2
SA 1

 

[ashley bach]

Let's call it a win for NZ given Lillee was a fraud.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Let's call it a win for NZ given Lillee was a fraud.

Agree. Used an aluminium bat so stats should be invalid.

 

[Socerer 01]

Does this not distort the question to the point where Trent Boult is an ATG batsman because he's the best #11?

real OGs pick Garner for his batting at 9

 

[Socerer 01]

Laxman?!? do me a favour. probably as much a household name for the follow on turnaround as for any greatness.

averaged 40 vs Zimbabwe, 39 vs Bangladesh, 30.64 against England, under 40 in 19 knocks vs South Africa, and maybe significant, 51.60 at home, 42.49 away

Girly averaged 45+ home and away, near 46+ (45.88), only achilles heel of an opponent was India (27.90) and next lowest against ANY opponent 42.56 vs Sri Lanka

is a bit odd his record vs India, 2 hundreds in India, none down under, and seemed to dislike playing Kumble down under and who got him most times in his career, even Harbajingjang and Shewags, point being whilst spin isn't a dead art down under you would expect him to make more runs and be out to seamers more there

you couldnt butcher those names more if you tried

 

[kyear2]

I've got his average standardising down to 42.92 when factoring in era, opposition, conditions etc. That's a very significant drop. Relatively poor longevity compared to most ATGs too, although I typically do give him a pass for that because he played until he was 37 - he was just picked late and likely would have actually averaged a bit more if he picked a couple of years earlier.

I don't care about his strike rate which I know we part on philosophically, but I know you don't mind my standardised averages project for what it actually sets out to do so I thought I'd bring it up. It ranks him at 128th near Herschelle Gibbs - if you give him two years' grace on the longevity front he'd end in the 90s near Richie Richardson and David Boon. I think even if you give him points for strike rate he's just too far off, and that's not even taking into account the relatively easy ride he got batting 7 in an ATG batting lineup.

By chance, what is Knott's standardized average?

 

[Prince EWS]

By chance, what is Knott's standardized average?

Flower 50
Gilchrist 43
Ames 40
Lindsay 37
Waite 36
Knott 33
Engineer 32

 

[271 & 16/166]

Isn't "yes" and "of course" the same thing, anyway, a "no" to ATG batsman, but without the gloves probably would have been a ATG

 

[kyear2]

Flower 50
Gilchrist 43
Ames 40
Lindsay 37
Waite 36
Knott 33
Engineer 32

Ames looking pretty good there

 

[howitzer]

Flower 50
Gilchrist 43
Ames 40
Lindsay 37
Waite 36
Knott 33
Engineer 32

A high standard gloveman too. Perhaps not quite on the Knott level, but still excellent.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Not even close