Indian Premier League

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I love the way you deleted your last post ret.

 

[ret]

Let's recap ur quotes

.

Ramnaresh Sarwan (before he got injured) was one of the best ODI players in the world and is the most accomplished ODI player at his franchise.

Shivnarine Chanderpaul has been one of the best ODI openers in the world for years now. And his record at the top of the innings is comparable to practically every outstanding opener throughout history. At Bangalore he and Kallis are arguably the best limited overs batsmen. Dravid is also pretty good, but Chanders has been better in recent years.

Judging players purely on Twenty20 stats is unfair, as few players have participated in many such games. However Sarwan, Gayle and Chanderpaul, I expect, will be first choice for their franchises. At least to begin with. As such I believe it could end up being an issue

I'd love to see your argument that Sarwan, Gayle and Chanderpaul aren't among the best ODI players in the world.

Simply because they're in a poor team does not make them poor or average individual players. There's a reason why these three players were enticed to the IPL

Some stats:

- Sarwan has the 5th highest ODI average among active players. He's marginally ahead of Tendulkar, though Tendulkar has 407 innings under his belt. But if Sarwan plays as many ODIs as Tendulkar, he's on pace to score well over 14,000 runs.

- Gayle scored a fantastic T20I century against a good South African attack. Aside from that, his ODI record is a bit more than useful with both bat and ball.

- Since September of 2004, when batting in the top 3, Shivnarine Chanderpaul averages 59.24 in ODI cricket. In 32 innings he has 5 hundreds and 10 fifties. A 33% conversion rate. In that same time frame Tendulkar has played more than twice as many innings in the top 3 (70 inns), scoring 1 less hundred and 7 more fifties. His average is significantly lower, as is his runs-per-game.

Now argue that these players aren't among the best limited overs batsmen in the world

Still waiting for your justification.

I'm claiming Sarwan is the most accomplished ODI playerat his franchise because he blatantly is. It's not my opinion. It's a statistical fact!

And it would take something incredible to justify leaving Gayle out of the first Kolkata game. As I've said, he's one of the highest regarded Twenty20 players in the world. He was bought for twice as much as Ricky Ponting. In fact, his price was more than Ponting and Hussey combined. Thoughts?

Chanderpaul's limited overs record speaks for itself. A batsman who will never get the appreciation he deserves.

Never had to consider so many points at once:

1. I never said that these guys are NOT good, so let's get that out of the way
2. Amongst the best is a broad term and again look at point 1
3. You claimed that they [all 3] would be the Ist choice for their francise, which I disagree with .... 1 possible .... 2 may be .... all 3 definately NOT
4. There is a difference b/w being the best ODI PLAYER and best ODI BATSMAN in a franchise .... so what do you want Sarwan to be?
5. If ALL the overseas players are available then C'paul will not be in the B'lore playing 11 on a consistent basis coz there are BETTER options
6. Gayle would get in the X1 as he is useful at the top order and for his bowling
7. Would love to see the SR of C'paul with that kind of average to make up my mind as to how effective he really was

 

[ret]

I love the way you deleted your last post ret.

yeah, i did coz i wanted to integrate ur posts [as in my post above] coz as a grp they are not giving the same message

and appear as confusing to me as the comments by those WICB officials on IPL

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

1. I never said that these guys are NOT good, so let's get that out of the way

Mhm? See here:

It was my way of saying that I don't completely agree with ur assesment on the WI players

This in response to me calling them among the best in the world. So do explain exactly what you were saying about them please. Also considering your implication of bias with your Bucknor comment.

2. Amongst the best is a broad term and again look at point 1

It's really not. There are a lot of mediocre players in world cricket, some world class players, and then there are the best. The best of world cricket indicates a very narrow range.

3. You claimed that they [all 3] would be the Ist choice for their francise, which I disagree with .... 1 possible .... 2 may be .... all 3 definately NOT

I stated nothing with certainty in that regard. I stated my opinion. I backed up my opinion with statistics. And your initial responses indicated that none would be first XI shouts.

4. There is a difference b/w being the best ODI PLAYER and best ODI BATSMAN in a franchise .... so what do you want Sarwan to be?

You cannot be serious. Sarwan is a specialist batsman, so obviously I was referring to him among batsmen. Weakest point, considering that you know very well exactly what I meant in the first place.

5. If ALL the overseas players are available then C'paul will not be in the B'lore playing 11 on a consistent basis coz there are BETTER options

Are there? Because in terms of ODI batsmen, Chanderpaul is clearly among the top 5 in the world. By weight of performance. And given that few internationals have played many T20 games, ODI records are the closest things we can use to anticipate ability in the format.

6. Gayle would get in the X1 as he is useful at the top order and for his bowling

No, Chris Gayle would get in because he's an explosive batsman first, and a useful bowling option second. His bowling alone did not get him an assessed worth twice greater than Ponting and Hussey.

That said, you're changing your tune:

I don't see C'paul being the Ist choice of his franchise .... same with Gayle

Onward...

7. Would love to see the SR of C'paul with that kind of average to make up my mind as to how effective he really was

Anyone who has seen Chanderpaul bat knows that he can hit the ball as hard and score as quickly as anyone in world cricket. Career SRs are misleading at times.

 

[ret]

Mhm? See here:

This in response to me calling them among the best in the world. So do explain exactly what you were saying about them please. Also considering your implication of bias with your Bucknor comment.

It's really not. There are a lot of mediocre players in world cricket, some world class players, and then there are the best. The best of world cricket indicates a very narrow range.

I stated nothing with certainty in that regard. I stated my opinion. I backed up my opinion with statistics. And your initial responses indicated that none would be first XI shouts.

You cannot be serious. Sarwan is a specialist batsman, so obviously I was referring to him among batsmen. Weakest point, considering that you know very well exactly what I meant in the first place.

Are there? Because in terms of ODI batsmen, Chanderpaul is clearly among the top 5 in the world. By weight of performance. And given that few internationals have played many T20 games, ODI records are the closest things we can use to anticipate ability in the format.

No, Chris Gayle would get in because he's an explosive batsman first, and a useful bowling option second. His bowling alone did not get him an assessed worth twice greater than Ponting and Hussey.

That said, you're changing your tune:


Onward...

Anyone who has seen Chanderpaul bat knows that he can hit the ball as hard and score as quickly as anyone in world cricket. Career SRs are misleading at times.

1. My argument on Bucknor was related to all those guys being the Ist choice in their franchise thats the point I m contesting .... these 3 being the IST CHOICE for their respective franchises is a wishful thinking, imo .... so i said that 'and Bucknor is the best umpire in the world' [which, imo, he is NOT]

2. Amongst the best would you mean top 5, top 10 or top whatever.... But I don't really care if they are amongst the best or not .... it's not an issue with me even if they are

3. I hv highlighted the part where you said that those 3 will be the first choice and just in case you forgot that i will quote it again

However Sarwan, Gayle and Chanderpaul, I expect, will be first choice for their franchises

and I said this "considering the international players that the franchises hv, SOME of these 3 WI players MAY struggle to make it to the playing X1, if other overseas players are available for the franchises" .... i hope you know what that means

4. If you meant the best ODI player then i guess a Sangakara or Lee brings more value .... Now that you hv cleared that it's best batsman, I disagree again .... I think Sangakara is the best batsman in Mohali squad .... and just like you tried to show with Gayle's salary, Sangakara salary reflects that .... Sarwan's inclusion would depend upon the composition Mohali deceides to go in. he would not be an automatic choice in the X1

5. You can keep honking on C'paul value but he will struggle to fit in B'lores plans .... I guess, he is taken more as a back up .... if Zak missies out, B'lore will need Kallis .... White will play .... Boucher will play .... and then one from Styen, Bracken, Misbah or Ross depending up on the X1 composition

6. Apologies on Gayle, I was probably thinking something else at that time .... he would probably be in the X1

7. I know C'paul can hit the ball hard, even I can .... SR is a good indicator of how effective a player has been when taken along with the avg .... a high avg necessarily doesn't mean effectiveness .... if you are arguing that high ODI avgs means everything then someone like Sehwag, Gambhir, Rohit, D Hussey would struggle to get in .... for e.g., if you ask me to chose b/w C'paul and Sehwag / Gambhir as an opener, i ll prefer the l8r

i guess, SL is coming to WI, so lets see what form these guys show as it ll play a part as well in the selection

 

[TT Boy]

Morne Morkel will be unavailable for Jaipur until 2009 after committing to his existing county contract with Yorkshire. CSA are pleased with the development for they would rather Morne play county cricket considering his touring the country later on in the summer.

 

[ret]

and if I m not wrong then even Langer has said that he will play county so that leaves Jaipur with the following overseas options for 08

Batsmen - YK, Smith
Bowlers - Warne
All-rounders - Watson, Tanvir, Mascarenhas,
WK / Wk all-rounder - Akmal

Jaipur has only one WK in Akmal, so he will play .... Warne plays .... Smith plays and I guess, it would be one from the All-rounders, most probably Watson

thats how Jaipur's X1 could look
- Smith, Watson, Kaif
- Yusuf Pathan, Akmal, Kohli, Warne
- Revander, Pankaj Singh, Jadeja, Munaf

Interestingly, as of now, all the reserves will be the overseas players, i.e. YK, Tanvir & Mascarenhas .... Jaipur needs to get some more Indian guys in. In case of an injury to any of the Indians, it does not have a back up as of now .... possible releave Langer, as he is probably not keen to play in IPL, of his duties and get someone else in

 

[Days of Grace]

Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle could miss Tests against Australia

http://content-eap.cricinfo.com/wivaus/content/current/story/342594.html

What a disgrace this would be if it were true. I mean, what the ****? So playing tests against the top ranked nation in the world means nothing anymore? They would rather play meaningless 20/20 cricket?? And if they don't play then their team will get absolutely routed.


Absolute dire sitation that ICL and IPL has caused.

 

[howardj]

It's an absolute joke, and gives the lie to the theory (already fairly flimsy) that players will take country over cash. If the gap between what you're earning now and what you could earn is large enough, then people go where the money is. Honestly, for the long term future of the game, what good is going to come of IPL / ICL.

 

[Prince EWS]

Dire.

I thought one of the main points of the IPL was to avoid situations like these being caused by the ICL - but it has just added to it.

Surely they'll play anyway. Surely.

 

[pasag]

The major issue I have with this story is:

but I am not going to not release the players because they would go anyway.

Well, no they wouldn't because they wouldn't be allowed to.

 

[yaju]

Maybe the WI Cricket Board feels that if a group of young Indian players could defeat the Australians, then a group of young West Indian players can also repeat the same act.

 

[Days of Grace]

Then they would be smoking some ganja!!!!!!!!

 

[Jono]

Yeah this is quite poor.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

This was brought up a while ago in the IPL thread. Merging in 2 minutes.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Jaipur has only one WK in Akmal, so he will play .... Warne plays .... Smith plays and I guess, it would be one from the All-rounders, most probably Watson

In Twenty20 I rate Mascarenhas higher than Watson in the allrounder stakes, but I don't expect many others do. I just think he's a better bowler, and he can definitely hit the ball.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Morne Mørkel will be unavailable for Jaipur until 2009 after committing to his existing county contract with Yorkshire. CSA are pleased with the development for they would rather Morne play county cricket considering his touring the country later on in the summer.

Didn't Ponting comment that the (contracted) Aussies likely would not play much part in the first two years of IPL cricket? Seems a lot of money for players that you can't play for 2 years.

 

[social]

Dire.

I thought one of the main points of the IPL was to avoid situations like these being caused by the ICL - but it has just added to it.

Surely they'll play anyway. Surely.

ICL releases players for international duty, it's the Board's that wont select them e.g. Shane Bond

 

[four_or_six]

In Twenty20 I rate Mascarenhas higher than Watson in the allrounder stakes, but I don't expect many others do. I just think he's a better bowler, and he can definitely hit the ball.

They perform different roles really... Watson is someone who'd bat in the top three and Mascharenas certainly wouldn't.

 

[four_or_six]

In Twenty20 I rate Mascarenhas higher than Watson in the allrounder stakes, but I don't expect many others do. I just think he's a better bowler, and he can definitely hit the ball.

Oh, and also it's dire that Mascharenas grabbed his benefit money from Hampshire last year, and now can't be bothered to turn up for them for the start of the season.