Indian ODI team discussion thread

[Arjun]

Here's another suggestion- Kaarthick fans will love this one.

• Chetan Sharma
• Bageshwar Bist
• Sriram
• Kaif (C)
• Raina
• Joginder (VC, RMF-new, striker)
• Vidyut (SLA, striker)
• Kaarthick (WK)
• Balaji (RMF- change)
• Mishra (LBG)
• RP Singh (LMF-new)

Strange, eh? Followers of Indian domestic cricket will recognise this as a combination of the TN, UP and Haryana Ranji sides. All three teams are good fielding units and run very well between wickets. These are key ingredients of a quality ODI side. This is a decent ODI selection, but they too lack power.

 

[Arjun]

Let's look at the issue of the strike bowler. Ideally, Zaheer Khan should be leading the attack. He has close to 150 ODI wickets and is quite effective when the ball is fresh and new. He's not in good form these days, but he's not trying hard enough. Far too much emphasis is being laid on line and length, when the team needs a genuine 'striker' to lead the attack. Look at Zaheer's most hostile spell in Headingley and you will notice he was bowling fast and he was attacking the batsmen by bowling at the body, with a few vriations. He has a good yorker, which he should use more often. Fielding is a concern, but he tries really hard. Good choice, but recent form is worrying and he needs to start attacking the batsmen full blast.

One look at Ashish Nehra's performance would be enough to play him as a striker. He's been bowling well in his last ten ODI's, with figures you would expect of all seamers. However, it's difficult to expect much of an attack which is led by a change seamer, and he's more effective that way than opening the bowling.

Whats the big deal with Irfan Pathan? He's clearly not seasoned enough to even be in the Indian side, let alone lead an attack. He lacks the extra pace, his swing often 'disappears' when the conditions don't get so bowler-friendly and whatever Irfan has done, Zaheer and Nehra have done better. He has had his fun in the sun, and now it's time he goes back to Baroda and practises his skills.

 

[honestbharani]

I think India's bowling looks decent. I don't think it is our main problem, the main problem is the batting. And BTW, more good news, Sourav is back as captain.

 

[honestbharani]

First let there be some power for the man to use well enough! That cheeky 'Jonty-like' Kaarthick isn't any different from Yuvraj, Kaif or Badani, except that he's never looked comfortable in the Tests he has played (and is nowhere close to Nayan Mongia with the gloves). Dhoni is a breath of fresh air in this stale batting lineup and fantastic raw material, and you have to make the best use of what you've got.

Never looked comfortable? Did u actually see the Kolkata test? He looked more than comfortable in both innings. Ran himself out in the first and sacrificed his 100 for the team's cause in the second. Will take him anyday over Dhoni.

 

[aussie]

Zaheer, Kumble and Laxman dropped from one-day squad

Cricinfo staff

August 13, 2005

In a surprise overhaul to the Indian one-day squad, Anil Kumble, VVS Laxman, Zaheer Khan and Lakshmipathy Balaji were excluded from the side for the tri-series in Zimbabwe later this month. However, all the four players were included in the Test squad along with Sachin Tendulkar, who will play if fit.

"Tendulkar is expected to be fit by the middle of September. His fitness will be assessed before the tri-series final (September 6) and in case he's found not fit to play, a replacement will be named," said SK Nair, the BCCI secretary, quoted by PTI. Zaheer, Kumble and Laxman were expected to miss out, after lukewarm performances in Sri Lanka, but the exclusion of Balaji, who played only one game in the Indian Oil up, came as a surprise.

As part of the revamp to the one-day side, Ajit Agarkar and Murali Kartik were recalled, to replace Balaji and Kumble, while Rudra Pratap Singh, the left-arm swing bowler from Uttar Pradesh, was the new face included. Rudra Pratap was impressive in the domestic circuit last season, finishing with 41 wickets in eight games. Suresh Raina, Venugopal Rao and Jai Prakash Yadav retained their spots.

The Test team was picked on expected lines with the selectors peristing with Gautam Gambhir and Dinesh Karthik, the wicketkeeper. India will play two Tests against Zimbabwe after participating in a one-day competition with the hosts and New Zealand in a month-long tour starting August 24.

One-day squad
1 Virender Sehwag, 2 Sourav Ganguly (capt), 3 Rahul Dravid (vice-capt), 4 Yuvraj Singh, 5 Mohammad Kaif, 6 Suresh Raina, 7 Venugopal Rao, 8 Mahendra Singh Dhoni (wk), 9 Jai Prakash Yadav, 10 Irfan Pathan, 11 Ajit Agarkar, 12 Harbhajan Singh, 13 Murali Kartik, 14 Ashish Nehra, 15 Rudra Pratap Singh.

Test squad
1 Gautam Gambhir, 2 Virender Sehwag, 3 Rahul Dravid (vice-captain), 4 Sourav Ganguly (capt), 5 VVS Laxman, 6 Yuvraj Singh, 7 Mohammad Kaif, 8 Dinesh Karthik (wk), 9 Irfan Pathan, 10 Anil Kumble, 11 Lakshmipathy Balaji, 12 Zaheer Khan, 13 Harbhajan Singh, 14 Ashish Nehra, 15 Sachin Tendulkar (subject to his fitness).


Now why was Zaheer khan & Kumble dropped from the ODI sqaud , though i agree with Laxamn's axing. Also how come Dhoni is the ODI squad & not in the test sqaud???, i know Karthink showed some improvement with the bat in the Pakistan series (that 94 in Kolkatta comes to mind) but come on Dhoni is definately a better batsman than him & probably also better glovesman.So why is Dhoni not in both sqauds????

 

[Arjun]

I think India's bowling looks decent. I don't think it is our main problem, the main problem is the batting.

The problems with batting are relatively minor. When you have Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag in the ranks, you have to make the most of it. It's a lot less about batting than it is about planning the batting side. That is, if you don't count one batsman often picked who doesn't fit the bill in ODI's. As for the bowling, they don't have that explosive pace that top-notch teams would have in their stocks. Kumble hasn't been in the best of form either.

And BTW, more good news, Sourav is back as captain.

You call that good news? They've never won a tournament when he was captain except for Natwest and Samsung, and that's just two in five years, not counting truncated/minnow series. The current Indian ODI side is a write-off before a tournament begins. Even you write them off all the time. Why don't you want the team to change?

Never looked comfortable? Did u actually see the Kolkata test? He looked more than comfortable in both innings. Ran himself out in the first and sacrificed his 100 for the team's cause in the second. Will take him anyday over Dhoni.

I have seen every single innings that Kaarthick has played and he's never looked comfortable in any of them. He's just got one scratchy innings where he played only to survive, rather than dominate- there's one too many in the current Indian side. Yet, he can't replace any of the batsmen on his batting ability. How can he, when his scores are only in bits and pieces? The advantage of a wicketkeeper-batsman is his versatility, so he can afford to be more aggressive than a specialist batsman. But Kaarthick is actually a lot more defensive, and not even good at it. Why do you want such a contender? His OD batting average is dreadful- reason enough not to pick him.

 

[Arjun]

Now why was Zaheer khan & Kumble dropped from the ODI sqaud

Kumble's recent form and fielding won't get a place for him in the ODI side, but the exclusion of Zaheer was shocking. He's one of the faster, stronger and more accomplished seam bowlers in the Indian side, and yet it takes just one good series for the selectors to drop him. He may not have looked his best, but he is still the best man for the job. By dropping him, the selectors have left the Indians as a bowling unit in the deep end without a safety tyre.

Karthink showed some improvement with the bat

That was no improvement- that was merely a one-off.

Still, looking at other issues- the recall of Ajit Agarkar is a massive step backward. After all, what great thing has he done for the team? Look, just getting 200 wickets is not going to help the team's fortunes much- the Indians lost that match against Bangladesh, when he got his 200th wicket. More importantly, they have never won a major tournament in the last 5 years when he has played. What does that tell you? These milestones count for nothing! He lacks the power, the consistency or even the body build you would associate with a quality pace bowler of today. They've blown it here. Irfan, on the other hand, looks a much better prospect, but he's not yet the finished product- let alone good enough to lead an Indian attack. This nonsense of having him lead the attack has hurt more than helped. It often takes one failed series for the selectors to drop promising newcomers and recall all those has-beens who are not needed, which may explain Murali Karthik's return- why pick a defensive spinner who often gets hit for fours and sixes thick and fast and can't even step on the right spto?

The inclusion of RP Singh is an interesting move. He's a bowler who relies a lot on seam movement off the pitch and he's been doing well in FC and List-A for his state side. He's also a very good fielder, which is what the Indian team needs more of now. His main problem is the lack of power- not particularly tall (though still taller than Agarkar) and slightly built, he doesn't have a body build like Zaheer. A good choice, but he's replacing a very important bowler and it's a tough ask to live up to that role, but the team management needs to give him aple opportunities. They have to have him open the bowling in every match they play- it's worth the risk. The selectos have done well by persisting with JP Yadav, given how badly the team needs a full-fledged all-rounder. Again, a selection worth risking in that role.

But no recall is as needless as that of Ganguly as captain. Ganguly's style of captaincy is too conservative, he backs his favourites too much and is often uncomfortable fielding newcomers. Not to mention he's afraid of taking risks that could boost the team a lot if they came off well. Frankly, Ganguly doesn't even deserve to be in the ODI side. When weak fielding and running between the wickets are issues that need immediate attention, his presence in the team only makes it harder. It's a pity the selectors are afraid of taking risks, even if they can change the team's fortunes for the better. That would make another pathetic showing by the Indians in this ODI series not so surprising.

 

[honestbharani]

I can see why England might be ruing the day they picked Geraint Jones. After all, he may let away the Ashes. I see the same thing happening to India if they persist with Dhoni. It is not inconceivable that he may well put down the catch that costs India a trophy or two.

 

[honestbharani]

And I was being sarcastic when I referred to Ganguly being captain as good news.

 

[honestbharani]

Zaheer, Kumble and Laxman dropped from one-day squad

Cricinfo staff

August 13, 2005

In a surprise overhaul to the Indian one-day squad, Anil Kumble, VVS Laxman, Zaheer Khan and Lakshmipathy Balaji were excluded from the side for the tri-series in Zimbabwe later this month. However, all the four players were included in the Test squad along with Sachin Tendulkar, who will play if fit.

"Tendulkar is expected to be fit by the middle of September. His fitness will be assessed before the tri-series final (September 6) and in case he's found not fit to play, a replacement will be named," said SK Nair, the BCCI secretary, quoted by PTI. Zaheer, Kumble and Laxman were expected to miss out, after lukewarm performances in Sri Lanka, but the exclusion of Balaji, who played only one game in the Indian Oil up, came as a surprise.

As part of the revamp to the one-day side, Ajit Agarkar and Murali Kartik were recalled, to replace Balaji and Kumble, while Rudra Pratap Singh, the left-arm swing bowler from Uttar Pradesh, was the new face included. Rudra Pratap was impressive in the domestic circuit last season, finishing with 41 wickets in eight games. Suresh Raina, Venugopal Rao and Jai Prakash Yadav retained their spots.

The Test team was picked on expected lines with the selectors peristing with Gautam Gambhir and Dinesh Karthik, the wicketkeeper. India will play two Tests against Zimbabwe after participating in a one-day competition with the hosts and New Zealand in a month-long tour starting August 24.

One-day squad
1 Virender Sehwag, 2 Sourav Ganguly (capt), 3 Rahul Dravid (vice-capt), 4 Yuvraj Singh, 5 Mohammad Kaif, 6 Suresh Raina, 7 Venugopal Rao, 8 Mahendra Singh Dhoni (wk), 9 Jai Prakash Yadav, 10 Irfan Pathan, 11 Ajit Agarkar, 12 Harbhajan Singh, 13 Murali Kartik, 14 Ashish Nehra, 15 Rudra Pratap Singh.

Test squad
1 Gautam Gambhir, 2 Virender Sehwag, 3 Rahul Dravid (vice-captain), 4 Sourav Ganguly (capt), 5 VVS Laxman, 6 Yuvraj Singh, 7 Mohammad Kaif, 8 Dinesh Karthik (wk), 9 Irfan Pathan, 10 Anil Kumble, 11 Lakshmipathy Balaji, 12 Zaheer Khan, 13 Harbhajan Singh, 14 Ashish Nehra, 15 Sachin Tendulkar (subject to his fitness).


Now why was Zaheer khan & Kumble dropped from the ODI sqaud , though i agree with Laxamn's axing. Also how come Dhoni is the ODI squad & not in the test sqaud???, i know Karthink showed some improvement with the bat in the Pakistan series (that 94 in Kolkatta comes to mind) but come on Dhoni is definately a better batsman than him & probably also better glovesman.So why is Dhoni not in both sqauds????

Have u seen Kaarthick and Dhoni keep? You are the first person to suggest that Dhoni is a better keeper than Kaarthick, I think.

 

[adharcric]

Why Dhoni for ODIs: he's shown that he can score big, has the attacking style that the Indian side needs, only performed poorly (w/ bat & glove) in IndianOil Cup but he shouldn't be dropped so quickly, especially since Karthik hasn't been that impressive either (and his batting has been primarily defensive)

Why Karthik for Tests: just like for Dhoni, he has to be given more chances before a judgment can be made and he has scored big on one occasion thus far ... once again, Dhoni didn't amaze anyone in the past ODI series so Karthik deserves the test berth; also, Dhoni hasn't proven that he can succeed as a patient, test-match batsmen yet

it's simply too early to be making straight judgments on Dhoni and Karthik, both have good potential with bat and glove and need to be given an extended run for the time being

 

[honestbharani]

I don't still know what convinced the selectors that Kaarthick would not be good in ODIs... Since when has one innings been enough to judge a man's batting abilities?

 

[Arjun]

Where are the team men?

They have Sachin Tendulkar, considered to be the world's greatest batsman. They have Rahul Dravid, the Mr. Dependable. They have Virendra Sehwag, a butcher with the bat. They have Sourav Ganguly, whose ODI stats speak for themselves. Then why are the Indian ODI side at the bottom of the pile?

A more appropriate question would be, where are the team men? Recent Indian teams have never been picked with building a team as a priority. Nor do strategies adopted look at that. Often, we find teams picked on seniority, statistics and skills, but not what's relevant in the team. They pick the top eight batsmen and the top six bowlers, but their skills are redundant when the team needs them most.

Compare this with the way one of the better ODI teams is picked. The Kiwis have a player for every role, and a team picked for a blueprint. Dileep Premachandran of Wisden has highlighted this in his article on the CricInfo India front page, when talking of successful ODI teams. They don't have as many 'stars' as the Indians do. They have players who combine well.

A Scott Styris doesn't look a world-beater with the ball, nor is he an all-time legend with the bat. Yet, the services he renders to the team help a lot. The batsmen have an able support player who runs lots of singles and hits that odd big shot, whil the bowlers have a reliable stock bowling option. Michael Bevan is no flashy player, but his quiet, unassuming style can change a match for Australia. Andrew Symonds isn't one you would expect to have a fantastic batting/bowling average and lots of centuries/five-wicket-hauls, but his power-packed batting and tidy stock bowling and fantastic fielding help the Aussies a lot.

Why can't the Indian selectors look for such players? The Indians lack team men, which is why we don't see a good team result despite quality of individuals. Team men may be all-rounders who hit the ball hard and bowl without giving away much. They may be decent batsmen but phenomenal fielders and fast runners betwen wickets. They may just be stock bowlers who can hold an end up. There is no dearth of such players in the country, even if the selectors may make it look like that.

India's 'team players' have never been given a fair try. Sanjay Bangar not only takes care of line and length at his end (with the odd variation) but also scores runs rapidly, with more than a few big shots. Yet he hardly gets to bowl and is then dropped after a few average performances with the bat, while the likes of Sehwag, Badani, Yuvraj and Ganguly himself stay in the side despite prolonged slumps. Mohammed Kaif is often in danger of losing his spot in the team, despite his fielding and adequate batting ability. Raina lost out on opportunities that could have been given, when he did well as a team player. As for JP Yadav and Ramesh Powar, the people that mattered may have had a hidden agenda to keep them out. As for those players picked for skills, except Sachin, Dravid and Sehwag, none of the others deserve a place in the team.

Is there any harm in picking combinations instead of individuals? What's more important, Ganguly getting a century or the Indian team winning a match? They're at the bottom of the pile, they're a write-off before every ODI series and the end result shows that. Thy can afford to take the risk. Dump some so-called starts and bring in valuable support players. Statistics may not favour them individually, but in combination- that's the key word- combination, they can be a lot better. That helps a team more than mere individual brilliance.

 

[adharcric]

agreed. especially on the point of ramesh powar and jp yadav, those two should definitely be getting matches by now, shame on the stupid selectors. guys like kaif and raina are very valuable in the field for their high-energy mode.

i'm not really disappointed with the selections for the zimbabwe tour. people who didnt do too well in lanka have been replaced by some iffy selections (agarkar) and some newcomers. but this is a new era under chappell, and we should see at least a little of all of our options (ie agarkar) before discarding them. for guys like zaheer, this should be an excellent wake-up call. kumble and especially laxman are primarily test players at this stage, so that omission isn't so terrible. the inclusion of raina, rao and yadav is a great sign that deserving players are getting longer stints. if only ramesh powar had that fortune as well ...

 

[aussie]

Have u seen Kaarthick and Dhoni keep? You are the first person to suggest that Dhoni is a better keeper than Kaarthick, I think.

i have probably i haven't really looked at Dhoni's keeping that much but he seems a better batsman i do reckon India should also go for the better batsman in Dhoni though....

 

[honestbharani]

This is very much becoming a Jones/Read type argument. And I prefer Read for tests. I think you wanted Jones. I guess we should just agree to disagree here.

 

[arjwiz]

Well I agree with bharani here, Kaarthick must be given the nod. If you think the 93 against Pakistan was his only contribution, you should have seen his batting in the U-19 world cup last year. He annhilated all the attacks, scoring at massive strike rates. He dominated the Sri Lankan attack. True, the bowling attack did not have a McGrath or Pollock, but his dominance was unmissable.

He is a better wicketkeeper than Dhoni without doubt, but he is also a very good batsman. He has the ability to hit the ball hard. He seems much more leve headed, and his batting and keeping techniques are better than Dhoni, who is just slam-bang hit-out-or-get-out types. I will certainly pick Kaarthick over Dhoni.

 

[Arjun]

Many may complain about Dhoni's slam-bang batting, but when it comes off, it helps the team a lot. As a batsman, he's fantastic raw material and needs a few adjustments, and a slightly different role. You can never fault him for his aggression- something lacking in the Indian batting lineup and nonexistent in Karthik's batting.

If you want a better wicketkeeper, Ratra is the best choice. His speed is second to none, his reflexes are very sharp and he's got a good sense of timing. His only weakness is the technique- he's very modern, unlike Mumbai's Vinayak Samant or even Dhoni. Forget about batting- even 20 runs he scores are vital. Batting should be no issue when you have your best keeper.

Keeping fielding as a key criterion for selection, how would this team do?

• Sehwag
• Gambhir
• Kaif
• Raina
• Dravid (c)
• Vidyut (SLA)
• Yadav(RM-new)
• Harbhajan(OB)
• Ratra(wk)
• RP Singh (LMF-new)
• Nehra (LFM-change)

 

[Arjun]

Let's look at a few players who may be very relevant in the team.

RP SINGH-

• Profile- Left-arm medium-pacer playing for UP, one of the best fielding teams in the country's domestic circuit. Gets movement off the pitch and decent bounce. Has played for the Indian U-19 team in the recent World Cup.
• Strengths- In good form recently. Movement with the new ball can wrk. Very effective on the field.
• Weaknesses- May be a little too slow. Moderate build, unlike Zaheer- not much muscle.
• Opportunities- Zaheer is out of form and dropped. Irfan is not refined. Nehra and Balaji are more comfortable bowling first-change. Agarkar lacks power and consistency. That should leave the new-ball position open.
• Threat- May not last too long in the side, given the selectors' and the management's newcomer-unfriendly policies. Some opening batsmen relish medium-pace early on.
• Preferred Role- Must bowl long spells with the new ball and two overs a match in the final stages.

 

[Run like Inzy]

Why do India continue to fail? I just don't get it. They have a star studded line up in batting, a pace battery which is young and talented but they just don't perform. Can anyone give a decent explanation?