Indian ODI team discussion thread

[Arjun]

There's a well-written article in Times International (Dated 22 Aug), a Times of India supplement, on the last page about Uttar Pradesh as a developing power centre in Indian cricket. Worth a read.

 

[Deja moo]

But do we look beyond the stats and watch what actually happens on the pitch?

A couple of years ago I'd have been tempted to call them the best, but IMO the Australian line-up is stronger.

IMO they stopped being the best in the world when Azza and Jadeja left. We still havent found suitable replacements for them.

 

[magsi23]

on international Level you can compare indian team with zimbabwe only.

 

[Arjun]

Jp yadav should be in the team , He is a fine batsmen , a good eco bowler , and a fine fielder , J sharmas a good talented all rounder too.

You mentioned JOGINDER SHARMA, so here goes-

• Profile- He opens the bowling for his state team. He's a key middle-order batsman in his team. His heroics have played a major part in Haryana's victory in the Tier II Ranji series. And yes, he's played for India and has been treated like an extra.
• Strengths- Stock delivery is the outswinger. He can get good shape on the new ball. He's a touch player and can find gaps and pinch singles very well. Very good outfielder.
• Weaknesses- Lacks pace, just like every other bowler playing for India. Often bowls a meat-ball, short of a length, toward pads. Struggles with an old ball. He's one Mohammed Kaif clone too many- lacks the power an all-rounder should have, unlike Yadav, Bangar, Irfan and Powar.
• Opportunities- Unlike Mohammed Kaif, he's also a strike bowler. Unlike Yuvraj Singh, he's also a strike bowler and he's a more responsible batsman. Unlike Agarkar and Balaji, he can also bat a lot more than just a bit. Unlike Zaheer and Nehra, he's good on the field. None of the current pacers are anything special, so he can make an entry.
• Threats- The same old problem- the Indian team is very unfriendly to newcomers. Batsmen can fancy their chances against slower swing bowlers. Besides, he's only played five matches with a white ball.
• Preferred Role- Bat him in positions three through seven. Give him the fresh, new ball.

He's very good raw material, and very young, but he's not seasoned. He needs to add a few more variations to his bowling and more power to his batting, and that would make him a good long-term prospect, particularly in ODI's. But he needs a few upgrades.

 

[Arjun]

Here are some extracts from an article by Dileep Premachandran, about some dubious selections in the Indian side. I could have said the same myself, but that would be getting old. I may have had hostile run-ins with him on another forum, but we now agree-

From Dileep Premachandran's article
Sourav Ganguly jumped like a scalded cat to the first delivery he bowled, Bond must have known that he was in for some easy pickings. These days, the world's premier fast bowlers look at Ganguly and see one of those fairground attractions, a stationary prize to knock off with the fast straight bullet, and there was a macabre predictability to the hapless fend that cost him his wicket.

The others were scarcely blameless either. Virender Sehwag rarely ventures past 20 these days, and both he and Mohammad Kaif perished to ugly flails that showed scant awareness of the fact that India needed to score at only four-an-over. Yuvraj Singh, who manages an innings of substance about as frequently as the Olympic Games are staged, perished in patented style, nibbling at one while the feet didn't so much as twitch, and Ajit Agarkar then showcased his allround worthlessness with a shot that was a mirror image of that played by Yuvraj. Agarkar's ability to bowl half-volleys, half-trackers and other tripe remains unrivalled, and it's a sad commentary on the state of Indian cricket that there seems to be no alternative for him and many others who clearly can't perform consistently at this level.

If Greg Chappell, who has to coach this rabble for another two seasons, had packed his bags then and there, you could scarcely have blamed him. On a deck that was clearly made for run-scoring, India were in danger of putting up a total that would have caused blushes in the Namibian dressing room.

And a few good men in this team-

Luckily for Chappell, and the few Indians who have journeyed into the heart of Africa, redemption came in the shape of a man who is the very antithesis of the pretty boys who have dragged Indian cricket into an underground cave over the past season. If he was English, JP Yadav would have been the quintessential county pro, rendering yeoman service for over a decade and reaping maybe a handful of Test caps as reward. Despite standout performances in domestic cricket in recent seasons, he has grown accustomed to rejection's cold touch, a state of affairs that continued in Sri Lanka where he wasn't even given a game.

With the ball, he was tidy without revealing anything like the variety or guile that would make him a game-breaker in the Ian Harvey mould. But there was certainly no hung jury when it came to his batting, which was composed, innovative and, most important given the scatterbrains that had gone before, thoughtful. He stroked and chipped the ball into gaps, was unafraid to loft over the infield, and showed genuine class on a couple of occasions while working the ball past point and cover. It ended on a sour note, with an ungainly slog, but by then, he had done enough to suggest that he should be persevered with as a utility allround option.

Irfan Pathan is already more than that. After having bowled a magnificent spell in tandem with the impeccable Ashish Nehra, he returned to play the sort of innings that he has produced on a regular basis since thumping Shane Warne into the scoreboard at the Chinnaswamy Stadium a year ago. Like Yadav, Pathan played primarily with the straight bat, and with a sense of purpose that made you wonder why he isn't batting up the order. Any satisfaction at a well-compiled 50, though, would have dissipated with the realisation that a true-blue display had been marred by an utterly inept batting line-up.

Spare a thought too for Nehra, whose incisive opening burst was at least the equal of Bond's. Both he and Pathan swung the ball and moved it off the pitch, but it was Nehra that strangled the batsmen by refusing to give them even the stray scoring opportunity.

The comments say it all.

 

[Arjun]

One note on the so-called wicketkeeper-batsman boom: You have Boucher, Geraint Jones, Kamran Akmal and Brendon McCullum, all of whom average less than 30. Moreover, Boucher scored just 15 half-centuries in 195 matches, Kamran has a single century, Jones has 3 over 50 and so does McCullum. Moreover, McCullum's strike rate is a little over 70.

Why can't Ajay Ratra be brought back?

 

[Arjun]

SUPER-SUB TRICK 1:

• Sehwag (super-sub Reetinder Sodhi)
• Gambhir
• Dravid (C)
• Kaif
• Raina (OB)
• Dhoni
• JP Yadav (VC, RM-new)
• Irfan Pathan (LFM-new)
• Harbhajan (OB)
• VR Singh (RFM-new)
• Nehra (LFM-change)

SUPER SUB TRICK 2:

• Sehwag
• Gambhir
• Dravid (C)
• Kaif
• Venugopal (super-sub Ratra)
• Raina (OB)
• JP Yadav (VC, RM-new)
• Irfan Pathan (LFM-new)
• Harbhajan (OB)
• VR Singh (RFM-new)
• Nehra (LFM-change)

Comments?

 

[Arjun]

VIKRAM RAJVIR SINGH

• Profile- He's young. He's tall. He's fast. He's strong. He's very, very aggressive. And he opens the bowling for Punjab.
• Strengths- He's a lot faster than those seam/swing bowlers often picked for the national team. He concentrates on his main strength- pace. His fast, aggressive bowling can add a new dimension to the existing Indian attack. He's also good on the field.
• Weaknesses- Not a hint of seam or swing. Given how much he attacks, he is often prone to bowling that odd loose delivery. His List-A record isn't too great (Ditto Stef Harmison. Look where he is now.), not to mention he's often prone to giving that odd verbal.
• Opportunites- An attacking fast bowler has been missing for a long time in the Indian side. He fits the bill nicely. Fresh relief from the Agarkars and Balajis who seem to have got stuck in this side for far too long.
• Threats- Those old goofs who try to emphasise the importance of seam and swing movement, who say that "pace isn't everything". Try telling the seven-strong Indian batsmen that. Bond. Shane Bond.. Hap-hazard planning by a bunch who don't know what's good for a fast bowler.
• Preferred Role- Give him a new ball. Exhort him to attack the batting side like a cannon. Set attacking fields for him.

The stale Indian pace attack can use something new. He may not be as fast as Shoaib Akhtar or Brett Lee, but he's definitely a lot more aggressive and it shows. The people in charge shold appoint a pace bowling consultant and get him to work with VR Singh and other young tykes. Not Bishan Bedi and all those other cynics of a bygone era.

 

[Arjun]

SRK VIDYUT

• Profile- Started off as a left-arm spinner, but is now a frontline batsman for TN. He scores at a quick pace early in the innings and though he's now played primarily as a batsman, he's often bowled more than a few overs particularly for TN.
• Strengths- Scores at a quick pace. Good fielder and runner between wickets. His background as a spinner can come useful if he's palyed as a regular stock bowler.
• Weaknesses- He's not bowled too much these days.
• Opportunities- Kumble's bowling rubbish and is a liability on the field. Harbhajan isn't trying to get wickets. Karthik is a misfit in ODI's. The other spin options are mere bit bowlers. He's young, he's been bowling a lot more and can do well as a frontline spinner for India, given who's been bowling for every other ODI team. He can do as well as Dhoni with the bat and his bowling is more reliable than Dhoni's keeping (and also easy to shield with good fielding).
• Threats- Knowing the Indian team management, he may end up bowling fewer overs than playing matches.
• Preferred Role- He can play as a regular at six/seven/eight exclusively as a big-hitter and bowl a minimum of six overs a match.

A bowling combination of Irfan (LFM)/VRV (RFM)/Yadav (RM)/Nehra (LFM)/Vidyut (SLA)/Raina (OB) will do well with good support from the field. Vidyut's added batting ability can allow the selection of a specialist wicketkeeper who's very good at that important job behind the stumps.

 

[honestbharani]

the problem with using your super sub tricks is that there is no guarantee about us winning the toss and going in without a keeper is way too risky.

 

[Arjun]

the problem with using your super sub tricks is that there is no guarantee about us winning the toss and going in without a keeper is way too risky.

That's the fault with the super-sub rules. They're way too rigid. One bad declaration can leave the team in a soup, as it happened with England in a NatWest Challenge match against the Aussies- they had Simon Jones in their side and batted first, losing the toss. They subbed Jones with Solanki and that worked in that phase, as Solanki got more than a few (50?) runs, but once they came out to bowl, the absence of one bowler showed up.

With rigid rules as these, this is a possible super-sub pair: Vidyut (SLA, attacking batsman) with Harbhajan (strike OB). If they end up batting first with Bhajji in the starting lineup, the super-sub can be made and Vidyut's bowling isn't too bad. Similarly, if they're asked to field first and Vidyut's in the lineup- no change is needed. But otherwise, if the team wins the toss, not too bad.

A preferred modification would allow the super-sub to be made and then reversed, as long as the player subbed earlier has not batted or bowled. Not bad, eh?

 

[Arjun]

Here are some ordinary team players who would fit into the Indian side neatly. The reason I am highlighting them is that you will find a few in the Indian domestic scene who can do just as well.

1. Who is he?- Justin Kemp, a lower-order hitter and stock medium-pacer for South Africa.
   What does he do?: Built like a giant blacksmith, he comes in during the final overs and smashes everything that comes to all corners of the park, mostly over the ropes. He bowls simple line-and-length stuff without giving away much and has done well for the team when bowling more than a few overs.
   Whom do India have? Sanjay Bangar may not be built like Kemp, but he can perform the role well. He'd do it for the team. Supporting left-arm spinner S Vidyut can also do the same.
2. Who is he? Hamish Marshall
   What does he do? He's a middle-order batsman who runs lots of singles and focusses on building partnerships
   Whom do India have? Look no further, Mohammed Kaif is there.
3. Who are they? Brad Hogg, Shahid Afridi, Nicky Boje, Upul Chandana
   What do they do? They're not strike spinners, but they do the job of supporting their strike bowlers well. When they come out to bat, they score more than a few runs, in contrasting but equally effective ways.
   Whom do India have? There's Ramesh Powar, SRK Vidyut, Yusuf Pathan and Rajesh Pawar.
4. Who is he?Scott Styris
   What does he do? He's a batsman who scores quickly when needed and as a stock bowler, he does a good job giving little or nothing away, supporting the strikers well.
   Whom do India have? Sanjay Bangar, Suresh Raina
5. Who is he? Shaun Pollock
   What does he do? He's a strike bowler, but when he comes out to bat, he look to hit big shots. He may not have an exceptionally good batting record (average less than 30, no centuries) but in the team, they fit nicely, especially when in combination with another such batsman.
   Whom do India have? Irfan Pathan and Jai Prakah Yadav can do just as well in combination.

 

[honestbharani]

I think the idea of having Powar in the side sounds good to me, esp. if Harbhajan does not do a strike bowler's role.

 

[Arjun]

I think the idea of having Powar in the side sounds good to me, esp. if Harbhajan does not do a strike bowler's role.

How about Vidyut or Yusuf Pathan? Vidyu's a better batsman, while Yusuf Pathan bowls like Kumble and is a hard hitter with the bat.

 

[Arjun]

Let's look at the bowling options for the final overs.

Ashish Nehra can be a surprise package in the final overs. He's not very fast these days, but he drops the ball in the right place and can be difficult to hit out when he pitches the ball right under the bat. His control over the old ball makes him a good contender, but he needs to be more consistent in these stages.

While Irfan Pathan is quite a handful with the new ball, he struggles when the ball gets a little old. Whether he's really as bad in the final overs as the scores suggest is debatable, since the bowling attack has often had at least one weak link (the bit bowler combo) and that gives the batsmen a chance, but old-ball issues are too big a weakness in the final overs.

Agarkar's an obvious target, while Balaji is a dark horse, since he too is good with an older ball. The now-discarded Zaheer was once quite good, particularly with his yorkers, but he's been out of form recently. Of those on the fringes, Joginder's lack of white-ball OD experience has shown up in the BD series in December 2004, but there's always room for improvement. Not much can be said of those who haven't played for India, but Bhandari, Paul, Bose and Salvi are decent.

Spinners are never a captain's favourite option here, but one who can vary his pace and make the batsman try very hard to hit around can do nicely. You wouldn't want to play your strike spinner in such a stage (unless he's very good), so the contender should be a non-specialist, like Rajesh Pawar, Yusuf Pathan, Vidyut or Ramesh Powar. An odd choice would be the part-timers for one or two overs, particularly Sachin/Sehwag, but a lot more will depend on surprises than skill when part-timers are in action.

Comments?

 

[Jono]

I think Powar could work well as a death bowler, with Harbhajan's overs already used up (we don't want him bowling at the death I reckon). Powar and maybe Nehra could bowl in tandem. However Powar isn't in the first XI, but rather Yadav is.

I like the idea of Ramesh Powar as the super-sub. If we bowl first, you can sub him on as an extra batsman replacing Nehra when India bats in the 2nd innigs. If we bat first, you can sub him off for a batsman who is our worst fielder (ATM its Ganguly but you can't sub off your captain Maybe Sehwag since Powar's off-spin would negate any need to bowl Sehwag.)

 

[Salamuddin]

I think Powar could work well as a death bowler, with Harbhajan's overs already used up (we don't want him bowling at the death I reckon). Powar and maybe Nehra could bowl in tandem. However Powar isn't in the first XI, but rather Yadav is.

I like the idea of Ramesh Powar as the super-sub. If we bowl first, you can sub him on as an extra batsman replacing Nehra when India bats in the 2nd innigs. If we bat first, you can sub him off for a batsman who is our worst fielder (ATM its Ganguly but you can't sub off your captain Maybe Sehwag since Powar's off-spin would negate any need to bowl Sehwag.)

The problem with Ramesh Powar's bowling is that he won't offer you any variety.
You've already got Harbhajan who bowls off-breaks.

 

[Deja moo]

Then you've got to question Harbhajans worth in the side. Of late hes purely a bowler who goes through his overs for 40 runs and maybe picks up a wicket. You cant have a spinner who isnt a strike bowler.

 

[Arjun]

Then you've got to question Harbhajans worth in the side. Of late hes purely a bowler who goes through his overs for 40 runs and maybe picks up a wicket. You cant have a spinner who isnt a strike bowler.

Harbhajan has often lacked support from the other end, since the part-timers often bowl more than a few hit-away balls. The pressure is on him then to save his ER, though he's a strike bowler. Give him a reliable stock bowler as a partner and he can then attack more. Look at strike bowlers of other teams. They have reliable stock bowlers backing them up- Vaas has/had Zoysa, Murali has Chandana, Vettori has Styris, Hoggard and Harmison have Jones and Flintoff, Bond has Oram, and the list goes on. Let Harbhajan have Powar, Vidyut, Bangar, Raina, Nehra or Yadav. Then allow him to attack. Let's just see what happens then. If it happens.

 

[Arjun]

I think Powar could work well as a death bowler, with Harbhajan's overs already used up (we don't want him bowling at the death I reckon). Powar and maybe Nehra could bowl in tandem. However Powar isn't in the first XI, but rather Yadav is.

I like the idea of Ramesh Powar as the super-sub. If we bowl first, you can sub him on as an extra batsman replacing Nehra when India bats in the 2nd innigs. If we bat first, you can sub him off for a batsman who is our worst fielder (ATM its Ganguly but you can't sub off your captain Maybe Sehwag since Powar's off-spin would negate any need to bowl Sehwag.)

You can use Powar or that other stock bowler in spells of three or four overs in key moments, to a plan. Powar uses a lot of variations, which can come useful in the final overs, if he doesn't bowl too many long-hops or low full-tosses. He flights the ball a lot more than Harbhajan (afraid of the crow taking the ball away, as he himself said) so it may be a risk. Not too sure about the other spinners. Yusuf Pathan is tall and extracts bounce- a style similar to Anil Kumble's.

Interesting, that you mentioned Yadav here, who's not played as a final-overs bowler. He can bowl in the 110's a few times, which can be a dramatic change in pace. Bangar's another option worth trying, though it was just one over against Zimbabwe in Adelaide that he bowled in such a stage- he's also quite slow and he can hold onto a line and length. At present, Nehra is the best choice.