Indian Cricket ... what next?

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Maybe perhaps the only time he's succeeded has been at number 3. At number 7 against Bangladesh he was pathetic.

But if he's hampering the greater good of the team by batting at 3, should he be in the team? This is assuming that he's not scoring as many runs as a specialist batsman such as Kaif or Sriram (though he does bowl some spin) would.

Also, Dhoni only played 3 innings against Bangladesh. You can't judge on 3 innings. He was also not out in one of the innings - 7 not out off 2 balls!

 

[Sudeep]

But if he's hampering the greater good of the team by batting at 3, should he be in the team? This is assuming that he's not scoring as many runs as a specialist batsman such as Kaif or Sriram (though he does bowl some spin) would.

Also, Dhoni only played 3 innings against Bangladesh. You can't judge on 3 innings. He was also not out in one of the innings - 7 not out off 2 balls!

I'm almost sure that if he batted lower than #5, he'd be hampered the same way Kaif is ATM. Of course, if Ganguly is dropped, we can accomodate both in the top five.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

At least Powar provides solid and gritty play down the bottom of the order, and he provides a competent fifth bowling option.

Much more valuable than a Yuvraj Singh/Dinesh Mongia in my opinion.

But is he providing more with the ball than Sehwag/Tendulkar? His value to the side has to be quantified. AFAIC, you don't pick a player based primarily on bowling and bat him at 7 in an ODI lineup.

 

[SJS]

I'm almost sure that if he batted lower than #5, he'd be hampered the same way Kaif is ATM. Of course, if Ganguly is dropped, we can accomodate both in the top five.

If batting below number 5 is such a bl**dy problem why do we play seven batsmen in the first place

The seven batsman theory is what brought kaif and Yuvraj in the team to start with remember

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I'm almost sure that if he batted lower than #5, he'd be hampered the same way Kaif is ATM. Of course, if Ganguly is dropped, we can accomodate both in the top five.

The two play different styles of cricket though. I think that number 6 is too low for Kaif. If you're playing a batsman of his type in ODIs, you need to give him more time to bat to maximize his effect.

 

[Sudeep]

If batting below number 5 is such a bl**dy problem why do we play seven batsmen in the first place

The seven batsman theory is what brought kaif and Yuvraj in the team to start with remember

Yeah, but neither of the two is a Bevan, or a Symonds, or a Flintoff, or a Klusener. Yuvraj showed promised in that context, but he has bombed big time. Kaif's style doesn't suit batting at #6 or 7, IMO.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Agreed. But Dhoni himself seems to be more comfortable with a top order batting #. He has hardly batted lower down in domestic cricket either.

Still, unless he's about to score regular half-centuries (at the very least), he'd either have to suck it up and compromise or get out of the team if I were at the helm.

 

[SJS]

If every batsman one had to bat at number 5 and above then lets first agree that we should have only five specialist batsmen. !!

PS Younis batted at number 8 and when the need arose scored a handy 40 odd.

This is what differentiates a one day specialist from a test match one. Those who need thirty overs to prove themselves in the limited overs format are really saying that they are test batsmen !!!

 

[Sudeep]

Still, unless he's about to score regular half-centuries (at the very least), he'd either have to suck it up and compromise or get out of the team if I were at the helm.

But he has the best chance of scoring whatever runs he can, at the top. Having said that, he hasn't been tried lower down the order enough to judge that he'd be worthless there. But I've my doubts...

 

[SJS]

Yeah, but neither of the two is a Bevan, or a Symonds, or a Flintoff, or a Klusener. Yuvraj showed promised in that context, but he has bombed big time. Kaif's style doesn't suit batting at #6 or 7, IMO.

Maybe.

But someone has to bat at that number.

Would you prefer Dravid or Tendulkar to bat there ?

When we discuss a teams batting order it is a TEAM's batting order that needs to be considered not an INDIVIDUALS batting position.

The flexibilitry and the change inherent in the limited overs game is what differentiates it from the longer version and those teams who refuse to understand this are doomed to failure in the long term in ODI's .

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

This is what differentiates a one day specialist from a test match one. Those who need thirty overs to prove themselves in the limited overs format are really saying that they are test batsmen !!!

It's not about proving yourself as much as maximizing upon potential. You want your best players facing as many balls as possible and you want every player in the side to be there with a distinct purpose. For instance, if Kaif is in the side, you want to allow the maximum opportunity for impact whilst not infringing upon those of other players. It's really just one big ond drive - all about balance.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But he has the best chance of scoring whatever runs he can, at the top. Having said that, he hasn't been tried lower down the order enough to judge that he'd be worthless there. But I've my doubts...

In which case you start to think, is his presence there hampering the team dynamic? It's not about personal success. Dhoni is not expendable.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

When we discuss a teams batting order it is a TEAM's batting order that needs to be considered not an INDIVIDUALS batting position.

I sense we think alike. Now if we can just fuse our minds together to form a superbeing that can apply for the Indian coaching job...

 

[Sudeep]

Maybe.

But someone has to bat at that number.

Would you prefer Dravid or Tendulkar to bat there ?

When we discuss a teams batting order it is a TEAM's batting order that needs to be considered not an INDIVIDUALS batting position.

The flexibilitry and the change inherent in the limited overs game is what differentiates it from the longer version and those teams who refuse to understand this are doomed to failure in the long term in ODI's .

Agreed. But we can't put a batsmen in there who has failed much more often than played well there. As per my point, Kaif would be more effective if he bats a bit higher. Which doesn't mean that either of the top order batsmen should go down. It was my point in the first place that Kaif should bat higher, but unfortunately can't.

 

[SJS]

Maybe.

But someone has to bat at that number.

Would you prefer Dravid or Tendulkar to bat there ?

When we discuss a teams batting order it is a TEAM's batting order that needs to be considered not an INDIVIDUALS batting position.

The flexibilitry and the change inherent in the limited overs game is what differentiates it from the longer version and those teams who refuse to understand this are doomed to failure in the long term in ODI's .

AND

if there are five players more suitable to fill the first five slots (say Sehwag, Sachin, Dravid, an in form Ganguly and , say, an in form Laxman) and if Kaif is not fit to bat at number 6, then he should be prepared to sit out !!

Today Younis can open, bat at 3, 4, 5 or 8. Same with Malik. Afridi can open or bat anywhere as needed upto nine. Razzaq, anywhere from 3 to 8. Ganguly should be prepared to bat from 3 to 7 and same for the likes of Kaif and Yuvraj. If they cant, they better stop caling themselves one day specialists as they are made out to be.

I agree that Kaif would prefer to be at four and probably will do a decent job BUT to say, that if he bats at number 6, he has no way to show his utility is incorrect.

The utility of a number 7 is not to be judged by an average in the 40's. That is the way only the fans look at it not the team and team management.

 

[Sudeep]

In which case you start to think, is his presence there hampering the team dynamic? It's not about personal success. Dhoni is not expendable.

If there's a player who can do better at #7 than him, then his his presence is hampering the team dynamic. If he's the best option available, then we've to be happy with whatever he gets us.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If there's a player who can do better at #7 than him, then his his presence is hampering the team dynamic. If he's the best option available, then we've to be happy with whatever he gets us.

Well that really is my point. I don't see how him batting at 3 is helping the team on the whole and if he can't bat lower, bye bye.

 

[Deja moo]

As has been stated in this thread, bring in Badani and dump Yuvraj. And the selectors should give Badani as fair a run as they did Yuvraj. Guys like Badani and Sriram are chosen for mere tokenism and are dumped after a single failure.

Plus Kaif should be batted at 3 or 4 regularly.

And I dont think this is the end of the road for Ganguly. Let him force his way back by sheer weight of domestic performances. September is still a long way off. Ample time to evaluate him and any other prospects the selectors may have in mind.

Another important issue that needs to be sorted out is how much of a say in team selection is the new coach going to be given. Wright has gone on record saying that he had wanted the freedom to choose his eleven. Woolmer has that freedom, and look how effective he has been by sending Shoaib Malik at number 3 and holding back the veterans Inzi and Youhana at 4, 5 and even 6 during chases ( when Razzaq walks in at 4).

 

[Sudeep]

Well that really is my point. I don't see how him batting at 3 is helping the team on the whole and if he can't bat lower, bye bye.

If there is someone whom he can replace at the top? Say for example, Ganguly can't get his act together... Then obviously, he should be batting at the top.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If there is someone whom he can replace at the top? Say for example, Ganguly can't get his act together... Then obviously, he should be batting at the top.

You're completely missing my point. I'll restate it... perhaps Kaif can replace him at the top. If not Kaif, a specialist batsman who contributes more.