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India : What next??
- Thread starter Anku31
- Start date
smash84
The Tiger King
and get ready to be screwed if you don'tHaha. You are guaranteed to win on Amir and Asif if you pay them enough
BoyBrumby
Englishman
Serious question time: do India have a clear out now or muddle on with more of the same?
When Big Dunc took over the reigns up here there was something of a (subtle) "year zero" approach to his rebuilding. Indentified a core to build around and took it from there. The likes of Darren Maddy and Aftab Habib were quietly ushered to the door marked "Exit" & he put his faith (correctly) in new blood like Trescothick and Vaughan, neither of whom had stellar FC records when selected.
Now obviously there is some very, very proven class in the Indian batting line up, but a lot of it is ageing class. The bowling, well, y'know. Praveen is game and has proved me wrong, but Sreesanth, Mishra & Harbhajan? Not weight-bearing pillars, IMHO.
I don't have a dog in the fight, obvz, just curious whether Indian fans would favour a "stick or twist" approach.
When Big Dunc took over the reigns up here there was something of a (subtle) "year zero" approach to his rebuilding. Indentified a core to build around and took it from there. The likes of Darren Maddy and Aftab Habib were quietly ushered to the door marked "Exit" & he put his faith (correctly) in new blood like Trescothick and Vaughan, neither of whom had stellar FC records when selected.
Now obviously there is some very, very proven class in the Indian batting line up, but a lot of it is ageing class. The bowling, well, y'know. Praveen is game and has proved me wrong, but Sreesanth, Mishra & Harbhajan? Not weight-bearing pillars, IMHO.
I don't have a dog in the fight, obvz, just curious whether Indian fans would favour a "stick or twist" approach.
Bun
Banned
This team has fielded even worse guys in the past and got away with it under Kirsten.
I have a very bad feeling about Jellyman. I don't think he's good for the team. Kirsten was the best, because not only he had a plan, but he had Paddy Upton to fix where it often goes wrong for our guys, in the head. This chap doesn't look like it.
Jacknife
International Captain
****ing Aftab Habib & Darren Maddy, were things really that bad.
I remember Habib on debut being owned by Cairns. Yes and a little research shows, he got a 27 ball one on debut before being bowled by him.
smash84
The Tiger King
Yeah even I get Greg Chappellish vibes from Fletch. It is still early days but the first series in charge under him is a disaster. If he thought India were going in under prepared then he should have made a report and given it to the board outlining his concerns. I remember Gary Kirsten coming out with reports of sorts (apparently there was one which had recommended more *** or something IIRC).
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Sorry, but how is it Fletcher's fault that the schedule for this tour wasn't helpful and there were a lot of players lacking match practice before the series? He didn't make those decisions so why should he get the blame?
Not to mention it's hardly his fault that India came up against a fantastic side in fantastic form who have played some of the best Test cricket seen in a long time.
Not to mention it's hardly his fault that India came up against a fantastic side in fantastic form who have played some of the best Test cricket seen in a long time.
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
Hasnt the rumoured knock on India been that they are big celebs who dont take coaching or criticism well? If that is the case- and the fielding, fitness and discipline levels may indicate some level of truth to this- then it kind of reminds me of late 80s, ealy 90s England.
For me, England being number 1 has its origins in Gooch being mocked by the Gowers and Bothams of the world for introducing hard work and structure to practice. It caused rifts and a generation or two for him to go from outlier to pioneer. Gooch was ahead of his time and people didnt see the value of an outlook that Englands success today is based on.
It appears to me, based on limited exposure, that India have too many Gowers and Bothams and not enough like Gooch.
For me, England being number 1 has its origins in Gooch being mocked by the Gowers and Bothams of the world for introducing hard work and structure to practice. It caused rifts and a generation or two for him to go from outlier to pioneer. Gooch was ahead of his time and people didnt see the value of an outlook that Englands success today is based on.
It appears to me, based on limited exposure, that India have too many Gowers and Bothams and not enough like Gooch.
Top_Cat
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Missing an option; pin it all on one bloke.
Not to mention he's been in the job 5 minutes. No ****, if certain blokes can't get themselves up for a series to decide the number 1 ranking, there's your problem right there which no coach can fix other than to make sure they're not picked.
smash84
The Tiger King
I do believe that it is an analysis that makes sense and seems accurate. Actually this is not only an affliction with the Indian team. I think it runs in all the SC teams (to a lesser extent with SL though).
Bun
Banned
We went 3 years without dropping a test series and got to no.1 test ranking with our Gowers so thank you. And we have won the World cup in the same period as well.
Turbinator
Cricketer Of The Year
C'mon Bun, you asked where next for India and what areas of concern they need to tackle, Goughy just provided a valid answer.
As an ardent India fan myself, I know it hurts to see them lose the way they have after having put in some really good performances over the last few years. But no one's denying that India have been a good team over the last few years, and the success we've achieved clearly outlines that.
With that said, there's obviously glaring weaknesses in the team and areas we can improve on. Goughy's opinion was valid in that India, and to an extent other SC teams, tend to rely on natural talent as opposed to a well structured fitness/practice regime and hard work. And that is quite evident in this Indian team, especially when you look at the fitness level of our guys. So certainly we can use far more "Goochs" in our team to really maximize the potential of our cricketers.
Bun
Banned
There is no sand in ****** syndrome here. One gets irritated when assessments become clumsy and lazy. People forget there has been considerable hard work and application of talent involved in converting an erstwhile middling team to world no.1. I have little tolerance for people. who dis miss such en effort by even resorting to ludicrous statements like we were just caretaker no.1s.
We did achieve the best we could hope to with our resources really. to be ****ing honest, if someone told me 6 years back that we would go 3 years without dropping a series and achieve world no.1 in tests and won the wc, i'd have smirked at him.
England are worthy holders of the mace, but this is just the beginning. I have my doubts on their versatility to perform in conditions outside their comfort zone. Also the pressure on them to perform will be even more terrific when they conduct their winter tours as well. We all saw how Swann was reduced to club class even amidst the bleeding that happened during the series, so questions remain for england to answer as well.
However it is plain obvious at the moment we have even more to answer. But those need a bit of consideration and thought, and not lazy armchair assessments. we need an overhaul, we perhaps need a change of guard, but that's rather an unfortunate effect of father time and mother luck taking thier sweet toll. Yes there have been structural inadequacies but hey they always have been there. It's no new news and absolutely not an excuse to not act on them as well. But to pin it on shallow factors isn't the way forward either.
We did achieve the best we could hope to with our resources really. to be ****ing honest, if someone told me 6 years back that we would go 3 years without dropping a series and achieve world no.1 in tests and won the wc, i'd have smirked at him.
England are worthy holders of the mace, but this is just the beginning. I have my doubts on their versatility to perform in conditions outside their comfort zone. Also the pressure on them to perform will be even more terrific when they conduct their winter tours as well. We all saw how Swann was reduced to club class even amidst the bleeding that happened during the series, so questions remain for england to answer as well.
However it is plain obvious at the moment we have even more to answer. But those need a bit of consideration and thought, and not lazy armchair assessments. we need an overhaul, we perhaps need a change of guard, but that's rather an unfortunate effect of father time and mother luck taking thier sweet toll. Yes there have been structural inadequacies but hey they always have been there. It's no new news and absolutely not an excuse to not act on them as well. But to pin it on shallow factors isn't the way forward either.
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BoyBrumby
Englishman
Ramachandra Guha lies the blame squarely at the feet of the IPL. From cricinfo:
"My view, and not mine alone, is that the existence of the IPL is the main reason India is no longer the No. 1 team in Test cricket. The case can be made on cricketing grounds, without any reference to the business methods of Lalit Modi or N Srinivasan. If India have performed poorly in the ongoing Test series against England, the excessive burdens placed on the players by the IPL are surely a key factor. That Virender Sehwag, Gautam Gambhir, and Zaheer Khan had to play that tournament immediately after the World Cup is why they had to miss the West Indies tour and did not recover their full fitness for the England tour. The under-performance of other major players, such as MS Dhoni, is likewise linked to the fact they have been playing too much cricket."
"My view, and not mine alone, is that the existence of the IPL is the main reason India is no longer the No. 1 team in Test cricket. The case can be made on cricketing grounds, without any reference to the business methods of Lalit Modi or N Srinivasan. If India have performed poorly in the ongoing Test series against England, the excessive burdens placed on the players by the IPL are surely a key factor. That Virender Sehwag, Gautam Gambhir, and Zaheer Khan had to play that tournament immediately after the World Cup is why they had to miss the West Indies tour and did not recover their full fitness for the England tour. The under-performance of other major players, such as MS Dhoni, is likewise linked to the fact they have been playing too much cricket."
Bun
Banned
sorry if i came across a bit harsh in that post, but aren't we jumping the gun here? The same approach yielded us a world cup and no.1 in test cricket for almost 2 years.
and for all the planning and what not from england's side, they have been no.1 for just days. Yes, the manner in whcih they took the crown has been nothing but emphatic, but one swallow doesnt make a summer.
Let them convert this underlying approach and philisophy into a sustained and consistent reign at the top and let's see.
smash84
The Tiger King
Turbinator
Cricketer Of The Year
Fwiw, I was quite appalled myself by some of the comments along the lines of India being the "caretakers" of the number 1 spot, especially since England has just taken over the spot.
There's no denying that England deserve the number 1 rank now. But to refer to India as mere caretakers of the spot is condescending to say the least, and unfair to their achievements in the last few years. And such comments will be a fair assessment if and when England, as Bun mentioned, have a sustained and consistent reign at the top. Imo, their tours in the SC will play a large part in determining that.
But as I've said before, I'm a firm believer of the rankings, and it's quite evident England are a worthy number 1, as were India before them.
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