Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[ankitj]

If he averaged 23 at home, then his overall average would be around 24. Then we wouldn't be having the comparison between Ambrose vs Imran, more like Imran vs Pollock.

Yeah so we should rate him higher for averaging 19 at home, rather than look at superficial disparity. We are saying the same thing?

 

[subshakerz]

For the record, I've never said that Imran wasn't a great bowlers, as I've said, for me borderline top 10.

For me he's clearly below at least Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee and Ambrose and after that the list gets murky, with 6 to 12 really being tossups. For me there's even a little bit of a gap between 3 and 4, not huge, but there.

I just want someone to give me a reason besides umpiring why his average at home, in less than helpful bowling conditions, is so much better than is is anywhere else.

None of the top guys have that large a disparity between thier home and away records.

I think Marshall, McGrath and maybe Hadlee have the clearest cases for being ahead of the rest.

Ambrose and Imran to me are a toss up.

Steyn, I love the bowler, but I never saw him as THAT good to be a top fiver. He ends up looking better more due to the era he bowled in.

 

[sunilz]

Yeah so we should rate him higher for averaging 19 at home, rather than look at superficial disparity. We are saying the same thing?

There is a significant difference between overseas average of Ambrose and Imran ( approx 20% ). Don't think this can be ignored while comparing them.

 

[h_hurricane]

There is a significant difference between overseas average of Ambrose and Imran ( approx 20% ). Don't think this can be ignored while comparing them.

Bumrah hopefully makes this list somewhere in top 10 in a few days from now.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There is a significant difference between overseas average of Ambrose and Imran ( approx 20% ). Don't think this can be ignored while comparing them.

Overall bowling average of the overseas series Imran played in his career was close to 33

Aggregate/overall records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

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And for Ambrose' career it was 28

Aggregate/overall records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Pretty solid indication that Imrans overseas figures came in significantly higher scoring series. A lot of high scoring draws in there on unresponsive pitches there too ( 27 drawn tests). Maybe some of this had to do with late Ambrose career west indies batting being terrible which would bring overall averages down for his series . But not entirely convinced how much that would've contributed. In this context Imrans overseas performance looks not just not bad but positively fantastic.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bonus stat: Overall average in series Steyn played away from home was 36 (!)

Aggregate/overall records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[kyear2]

Averaging 25 away is only a problem because he averaged 19 at home. If the disparity was like 23 to 25, you wouldn't be saying that. His superb record at home is reason to rate him higher, not lower.

Also his record is actually very very rounded. Worst average in a country being 28.5!

His record at home can't be a reason to rate him higher if it doesn't make sense. Especially when he averaged higher bowling in much friendlier conditions.
And of the two, which would be a clearer indicator of where actually stands?

Additionally, if we're placing him in the top 5 or higher, we're comparing him to Marshall, McGrath, Steyn (apparently just me though) and Hadlee and he just wasn't quite at that level.

 

[smash84]

Don't forget Imran Khan also runs a giant country. Crazy levels of achievement in one lifetime.

Yeah but his PMship currently is like his all round game in the early to mid 70s

He needs to step up his game

 

[Slifer]

The only reason Pakistan didn't beat West Indies at home in the 80s is because of undeniably dire home umpiring so I'm going to halve Imran's average in the West Indies

West Indies played Pakistan 4 times from 1980 to 1990, 3 series were in Pakistan and 1 in the WI. Pakistan had more than enough opportunities to beat the WI considering most of those series were in Pakistan but they didn't...Biased WI umpiring cannot be the only reason.

 

[Slifer]

There is a significant difference between overseas average of Ambrose and Imran ( approx 20% ). Don't think this can be ignored while comparing them.

Little off topic but I just have to give respect to Shane Warne. For a spinner, a leg spinner to do so well overseas is outstanding. Ditto Joel Garner....

 

[Slifer]

His record at home can't be a reason to rate him higher if it doesn't make sense. Especially when he averaged higher bowling in much friendlier conditions.
And of the two, which would be a clearer indicator of where actually stands?

Additionally, if we're placing him in the top 5 or higher, we're comparing him to Marshall, McGrath, Steyn (apparently just me though) and Hadlee and he just wasn't quite at that level.

Smh, now they are saying overseas averages in Imran's time were higher than Ambrose's, therefore his 26 away average is even better relatively speaking. That also tells me then, that Garner, Hadlee, and Marshall were leagues ahead of Imran then, since they all were phenomenal away....??

 

[OverratedSanity]

Smh, now they are saying overseas averages in Imran's time were higher than Ambrose's, therefore his 26 away average is even better relatively speaking. That also tells me then, that Garner, Hadlee, and Marshall were leagues ahead of Imran then, since they all were phenomenal away....??

Overall avg in the overseas series played by ATG bowlers compared to their own avg in those series:

Steyn: 36 overall vs 24.9
McGrath: 30 overall vs 20.8
Imran: 33 overall vs 26
Marshall: 29 overall vs 21
Ambrose: 28 overall vs 21
Hadlee: 30 overall vs 21.9

Probably a stupid analysis (because its affected by too many factors here to be reliable) but less stupid than most stuff in this thread imo. Clearly Imran played in way more high scoring series than the others so, in context his numbers are as impressive as any of the others. and had as much relative impact in his series as the others did.

Steyn obviously the best by a distance.

 

[Slifer]

Overall avg in the overseas series played by ATG bowlers compared to their own avg in those series:

Steyn: 36 overall vs 24.9
McGrath: 30 overall vs 20.8
Imran: 33 overall vs 26
Marshall: 29 overall vs 21
Ambrose: 28 overall vs 21
Hadlee: 30 overall vs 21.9

Probably a stupid analysis (because its affected by too many factors here to be reliable) but less stupid than most stuff in this thread imo. Clearly Imran played in way more high scoring series than the others so, in context his numbers are as impressive as any of the others. and had as much relative impact in his series as the others did.

Steyn obviously the best by a distance.

Tbh, I was trolling with my comment. Imran is an amazing cricketer and fast bowler. I hate having to to criticize him tbh

 

[Gob]

Don't forget Imran Khan also runs a giant country. Crazy levels of achievement in one lifetime.

Yeah Imran's performances on and off the field definitely adds to his personality like with Kieth Miller who was a fighter pilot in the great war. Imran was also hung like a rogue elephant according to Tony Greig. In fact there was an interesting anecdote from Tony about Imran breaking a hotel room bed when he had to room up with the great man for world series cricket

 

[Gob]

Little off topic but I just have to give respect to Shane Warne. For a spinner, a leg spinner to do so well overseas is outstanding. Ditto Joel Garner....

Because he is a hero Shane Warne. He was a Victorian through and through Shane Warne and knows how to dig deep in a crisis

**** I need to stop listening to the 12th man in loop

 

[TheJediBrah]

Because he is a hero Shane Warne. He was a Victorian through and through Shane Warne and knows how to dig deep in a crisis

**** I need to stop listening to the 12th man in loop

shane warne i love him i wanna boof him get him up here

 

[Gob]

shane warne i love him i wanna boof him get him up here

Warney warney warney

Shut up bull

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lost it @ "bull"

 

[ankitj]

Yeah but his PMship currently is like his all round game in the early to mid 70s

He needs to step up his game

Not doing very well away from home too I reckon.

 

[ankitj]

There is a significant difference between overseas average of Ambrose and Imran ( approx 20% ). Don't think this can be ignored while comparing them.

When comparing with Ambrose, no issues rating Ambrose higher. That's how I voted too. I just don't think apparent disparity between his home and away games is much to look at.