Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[SillyCowCorner1]

Nooe, you are the one straight up lying here. What I said was very clear.

This was the first point I made

Ambrose against Pakistan 27.9, Imran against WI - 21.2

Imran in 80% his bowling career bowled to a dominant West Indies side. For half of his career Ambrose was in the dominant team. During half of that time the second dominant team was Pakistam. Other half of the time it was Australia. Either not as strong as West Indies that Imran bowled to.

Then you go on a tangent discussing about the batting strengths. In late 90s Indians were as good as Aussies in their own den. Because this was going in a tangent, I ignored it.
Once again I smashed your argument that Pakistani batting was poor, and re-iterated that Wi of 80 s were better tha Australia og 90s.

Even after getting owned with facts best you can do is cheap accusations of lies. That is a sure sign of an empty cupboard.


If we summarize the whole thing;

1. Imran in majority of his career bowled to probably the best test side in cricket hsitory and came out with flying colors.
2. Ambroses best opposition in his early career was Pakistan, who were the 2nd best team. In his late career it was Australia who was the top team.
3. Neither of above teams in (2) are as good as in (1).

If you want to carry on even after this much of clarification, you can go ahead with your rose tinted glasses or warped sense of reality.

ok

 

[Migara]

Pakistani cricket team in the West Indies in 1992–93 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

??????

I am looking for Imran Khan.

 

[Arachnodouche]

They're such different bowlers. I wouldn't mind having both in my ATG side. Round it off with Marshall and you have a pace unit for all seasons.

 

[Slifer]

I am looking for Imran Khan.

Migara said:
Once again this is incorrect. Half of the Ambroses career they could not beat Pakistan.

Ambrose debuted in 1988, half of his career would be around hmmm 1994ish. WI beat Pakistan in 1993..... Now if you want to now say you meant he never beat a ?? team with Imran, then say that....

 

[Slifer]

Nooe, you are the one straight up lying here. What I said was very clear.

This was the first point I made

Ambrose against Pakistan 27.9, Imran against WI - 21.2

Imran in 80% his bowling career bowled to a dominant West Indies side. For half of his career Ambrose was in the dominant team. During half of that time the second dominant team was Pakistam. Other half of the time it was Australia. Either not as strong as West Indies that Imran bowled to.

Then you go on a tangent discussing about the batting strengths. In late 90s Indians were as good as Aussies in their own den. Because this was going in a tangent, I ignored it.
Once again I smashed your argument that Pakistani batting was poor, and re-iterated that Wi of 80 s were better tha Australia og 90s.

Even after getting owned with facts best you can do is cheap accusations of lies. That is a sure sign of an empty cupboard.


If we summarize the whole thing;

1. Imran in majority of his career bowled to probably the best test side in cricket history and came out with flying colors.
2. Ambroses best opposition in his early career was Pakistan, who were the 2nd best team. In his late career it was Australia who was the top team.
3. Neither of above teams in (2) are as good as in (1).

If you want to carry on even after this much of clarification, you can go ahead with your rose tinted glasses or warped sense of reality.

Bro u smashed nothing. Your argument is nonsensical. Where did I mention anything about Indian batting strength? Pakistan being the 2nd best team in the 80s was more to do with their bowling than batting. WI constantly kept their best batsman Sir Javed in check but the likes of Akram, Imran Qadir (in Pakistan) mostly did the same thing to the WI lineup.

Who cares that Ambrose didn't bowl to a batting lineup as strong as WI 1980s. As much as I love my 80s, their batting lineup was not light years ahead of Australia in the 90s. The fact is Ambrose was more consistent across more countries.

 

[kyear2]

I think if we look at the other top bowlers we can notice similar shortcomings overseas.

McGrath was only decent in Sri Lanka or Pakistan, yet he is said to have conquered the subcontinent.

Steyn has relatively high averages in England and Australia, two strong batting sides of his era. Yet Steyn is considered a success in Australia while Imran is not, despite averaging the same.

Ambrose, as mentioned, only played 6 tests in the subcontinent in his entire career, and took relatively few wickets, but again is given a pass on his overseas checklist.

Hadlee only played one series in the WI at their peak, in which he did below his standards and averaged 27, yet again he is considered to have a complete overseas record.

Some posters suggested that Imran didnt do comparatively well enough in England despite averaging 24, while Marshall averaged 24 in India and nobody has the same issue.

Are you seriously comparing averaging 24 in England to averaging 24 in India? The easiest place to bowl vs literally the hardest of that era.

For reference that 24 for Imran was his lowest average outside of Pakistan vs major test playing nations. For Marshall that 24 was his highest outside of an aberration of a series vs NZ where he was injured.

Are you serious with these comparisons.

 

[Jayro]

Sorry I accidentally clicked for Imran - please change mine to king Ambrose who also happened to be my all time favorite.

 

[The Sean]

My view on the relative merits and rankings of the great fast bowlers tends broadly to match the CW community, but one of the exceptions is that I rate Imran higher than most – whereas he’s in most people’s top ten, he’s in my top 5 (and maybe even 3 or 4). It could be that I’m such a fan of his work and now so wedded to the idea that he should rank so highly that I handwave or make excuses for anything that shows otherwise, which is something that I suppose a lot of us do.

His home v away record is certainly more skewed than most of the other great quicks, though it’s always felt to me as much a question of circumstance than ability. As we know, Imran in the 1970s took a while to develop into the great bowler he became, and seven of his first nine Test series between 1971 and 1980 were away from home, which always had him playing catch-up from an away-average perspective. Despite that, he still produced big wicket-taking performances in Australia and the West Indies, and – while not official, of course – had a superb record in WSC.

He definitely then benefited from home advantage during his peak years as a bowler by playing more often in Pakistan than elsewhere, but it’s been noted often that Pakistan wasn’t necessarily a fast-bowlers’ paradise and his record there in the early- to mid-80s wasn’t just good, it was beyond phenomenal.

And even then, when given the chance away from home he was still brilliant – he had a very good tour to Australia, two superb tours of England and a fantastic series in the West Indies. He did well in Sri Lanka, too, though wasn’t quite as dominant as he'd been at home.

It also shouldn’t be forgotten that the knee injury which cut him down in 1983 came right in the middle of that extraordinary peak (he was on a run in which he averaged sub-20 for eight consecutive series in which he bowled). He toured Australia in 1983/84 but played just two Tests and bowled in neither of them. One of the great disappointments for Australian cricket fans (though probably not Australian batsmen) was that his knee injury meant we never got to see absolute prime Imran as a fast bowler in Australia in the way we did Malcolm Marshall the following summer or – at an even more epic level – Richard Hadlee the year after.

As I say, you could make similar arguments and/or refutations for or against any number of bowlers at about the same level and I get why many on here rate Imran fractionally lower than the handful of blokes at the very top. But for me, he’s right up there.

 

[Engle]

Imran came out ahead of Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall in Tests they bowled together. The sample size was small, but telling that he could hold his own and even better than the best of his times.

 

[subshakerz]

My view on the relative merits and rankings of the great fast bowlers tends broadly to match the CW community, but one of the exceptions is that I rate Imran higher than most – whereas he’s in most people’s top ten, he’s in my top 5 (and maybe even 3 or 4). It could be that I’m such a fan of his work and now so wedded to the idea that he should rank so highly that I handwave or make excuses for anything that shows otherwise, which is something that I suppose a lot of us do.

His home v away record is certainly more skewed than most of the other great quicks, though it’s always felt to me as much a question of circumstance than ability. As we know, Imran in the 1970s took a while to develop into the great bowler he became, and seven of his first nine Test series between 1971 and 1980 were away from home, which always had him playing catch-up from an away-average perspective. Despite that, he still produced big wicket-taking performances in Australia and the West Indies, and – while not official, of course – had a superb record in WSC.

He definitely then benefited from home advantage during his peak years as a bowler by playing more often in Pakistan than elsewhere, but it’s been noted often that Pakistan wasn’t necessarily a fast-bowlers’ paradise and his record there in the early- to mid-80s wasn’t just good, it was beyond phenomenal.

And even then, when given the chance away from home he was still brilliant – he had a very good tour to Australia, two superb tours of England and a fantastic series in the West Indies. He did well in Sri Lanka, too, though wasn’t quite as dominant as he'd been at home.

It also shouldn’t be forgotten that the knee injury which cut him down in 1983 came right in the middle of that extraordinary peak (he was on a run in which he averaged sub-20 for eight consecutive series in which he bowled). He toured Australia in 1983/84 but played just two Tests and bowled in neither of them. One of the great disappointments for Australian cricket fans (though probably not Australian batsmen) was that his knee injury meant we never got to see absolute prime Imran as a fast bowler in Australia in the way we did Malcolm Marshall the following summer or – at an even more epic level – Richard Hadlee the year after.

As I say, you could make similar arguments and/or refutations for or against any number of bowlers at about the same level and I get why many on here rate Imran fractionally lower than the handful of blokes at the very top. But for me, he’s right up there.

Terrific. Also worth pointing out that his peak ICC rating is higher than any bowler of the modern era.

I agree with all of it and it echoes my sentiments about Imran. He is top 5 for me as well (but then, so is Ambrose, so I dont mind who gets ranked higher or lower, but they are closer that posters are making it out to be).

 

[Slifer]

My view on the relative merits and rankings of the great fast bowlers tends broadly to match the CW community, but one of the exceptions is that I rate Imran higher than most – whereas he’s in most people’s top ten, he’s in my top 5 (and maybe even 3 or 4). It could be that I’m such a fan of his work and now so wedded to the idea that he should rank so highly that I handwave or make excuses for anything that shows otherwise, which is something that I suppose a lot of us do.

His home v away record is certainly more skewed than most of the other great quicks, though it’s always felt to me as much a question of circumstance than ability. As we know, Imran in the 1970s took a while to develop into the great bowler he became, and seven of his first nine Test series between 1971 and 1980 were away from home, which always had him playing catch-up from an away-average perspective. Despite that, he still produced big wicket-taking performances in Australia and the West Indies, and – while not official, of course – had a superb record in WSC.

He definitely then benefited from home advantage during his peak years as a bowler by playing more often in Pakistan than elsewhere, but it’s been noted often that Pakistan wasn’t necessarily a fast-bowlers’ paradise and his record there in the early- to mid-80s wasn’t just good, it was beyond phenomenal.

And even then, when given the chance away from home he was still brilliant – he had a very good tour to Australia, two superb tours of England and a fantastic series in the West Indies. He did well in Sri Lanka, too, though wasn’t quite as dominant as he'd been at home.

It also shouldn’t be forgotten that the knee injury which cut him down in 1983 came right in the middle of that extraordinary peak (he was on a run in which he averaged sub-20 for eight consecutive series in which he bowled). He toured Australia in 1983/84 but played just two Tests and bowled in neither of them. One of the great disappointments for Australian cricket fans (though probably not Australian batsmen) was that his knee injury meant we never got to see absolute prime Imran as a fast bowler in Australia in the way we did Malcolm Marshall the following summer or – at an even more epic level – Richard Hadlee the year after.

As I say, you could make similar arguments and/or refutations for or against any number of bowlers at about the same level and I get why many on here rate Imran fractionally lower than the handful of blokes at the very top. But for me, he’s right up there.

Respect this honest and well thought out assessment. Well said. ??

 

[ankitj]

Imran's bowling peak was truly insane. There's definitely a case to put him in top 5 as @The Sean says

 

[kyear2]

Terrific. Also worth pointing out that his peak ICC rating is higher than any bowler of the modern era.

I agree with all of it and it echoes my sentiments about Imran. He is top 5 for me as well (but then, so is Ambrose, so I dont mind who gets ranked higher or lower, but they are closer that posters are making it out to be).

For the record, I've never said that Imran wasn't a great bowlers, as I've said, for me borderline top 10.

For me he's clearly below at least Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee and Ambrose and after that the list gets murky, with 6 to 12 really being tossups. For me there's even a little bit of a gap between 3 and 4, not huge, but there.

I just want someone to give me a reason besides umpiring why his average at home, in less than helpful bowling conditions, is so much better than is is anywhere else.

None of the top guys have that large a disparity between thier home and away records.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Reverse swing? He and Bakht invented the thing for those bone-dry wickets. I doubt many visiting batsmen would've seen anything like it. Also may not have been as effective on greener surfaces abroad.

 

[trundler]

The only reason Pakistan didn't beat West Indies at home in the 80s is because of undeniably dire home umpiring so I'm going to halve Imran's average in the West Indies

 

[smash84]

Reverse swing? He and Bakht invented the thing for those bone-dry wickets. I doubt many visiting batsmen would've seen anything like it. Also may not have been as effective on greener surfaces abroad.

Pretty much.

He was the first to really perfect the art of reverse swing and bowl it at searing pace.

 

[ankitj]

Don't forget Imran Khan also runs a giant country. Crazy levels of achievement in one lifetime.

 

[ankitj]

None of the top guys have that large a disparity between thier home and away records.

Averaging 25 away is only a problem because he averaged 19 at home. If the disparity was like 23 to 25, you wouldn't be saying that. His superb record at home is reason to rate him higher, not lower.

Also his record is actually very very rounded. Worst average in a country being 28.5!

 

[sunilz]

Averaging 25 away is only a problem because he averaged 19 at home. If the disparity was like 23 to 25, you wouldn't be saying that. His superb record at home is reason to rate him higher, not lower.

Also his record is actually very very rounded. Worst average in a country being 28.5!

If he averaged 23 at home, then his overall average would be around 24. Then we wouldn't be having the comparison between Ambrose vs Imran, more like Imran vs Pollock.

 

[subshakerz]

Reverse swing? He and Bakht invented the thing for those bone-dry wickets. I doubt many visiting batsmen would've seen anything like it. Also may not have been as effective on greener surfaces abroad.

Sarfraz Nawaz