Imran Khan vs Allan Donald

[Coronis]

You literally said: 'its much worse than not being able to perform against a stronger opposition'. So logically you would find Sobers doing poorly against NZ worse than doing poorly against Aus. You just don't want to follow your own logic in this because it leads to embarassing conclusions because we all wouldn't rate Sobers the same if he failed against Aus.



Lol this is so silly. The reason it's surprising to fail against a poor team is because a player already has a record of scoring well against similar if not better opposition. So whereas it's a blemish, it's not a fundamental question of his ability as a cricketer since he is already proven. Nobody thinks Sobers doesn't deserve to be an ATG due to how he played because of NZ.

Whereas failing against higher opposition does put your skills and ability as a player into question since it suggests you have a cap and limitation. Sobers failing against Aus would call into question whether he even deserves to be considered an ATG.

Performances against better teams will always be more significant to a player’s overall rating. Failing against a poor team is just worse than failing against a better team. Performing against a better team is conversely, better than performing against a worse team. I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp.

 

[subshakerz]

Performances against better teams will always be more significant to a player’s overall rating. Failing against a poor team is just worse than failing against a better team. Performing against a better team is conversely, better than performing against a worse team. I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp.

No. Performance or lack of performance against better teams will be more significant to a players rating. It's significant either way unless you already rate the player someone who is not worldclass.

 

[Coronis]

No. Performance or lack of performance against better teams will be more significant to a players rating. It's significant either way unless you already rate the player someone who is not worldclass.

I literally said performances against better teams will always contribute more to a players overall rating. You seem to be completely misunderstanding me. Whether on purpose or not, I can’t tell

 

[subshakerz]

I literally said performances against better teams will always contribute more to a players overall rating. You seem to be completely misunderstanding me. Whether on purpose or not, I can’t tell

The problem is that you needed to clarify 'worse'.

Is underperforming against weak teams worse than good teams for a players rating? No.

Is underperforming against weak teams worse than good teams in terms of a less excusable or expected failing? Yes.

 

[Coronis]

The problem is that you needed to clarify 'worse'.

Is underperforming against weak teams worse than good teams for a players rating? No.

Is underperforming against weak teams worse than good teams in terms of a less excusable or expected failing? Yes.

I mean sounds like your own issue but w/e

 

[subshakerz]

I mean sounds like your own issue but w/e

You were conflating things in how you presented it but anyways...

 

[Coronis]

You were conflating things in how you presented it but anyways...

But anyways Imran > Donald

 

[akilana]

Lol this is so silly. The reason it's surprising to fail against a poor team is because a player already has a record of scoring well against similar if not better opposition. So whereas it's a blemish, it's not a fundamental question of his ability as a cricketer since he is already proven. Nobody thinks Sobers doesn't deserve to be an ATG due to how he played because of NZ.

Whereas failing against higher opposition does put your skills and ability as a player into question since it suggests you have a cap and limitation. Sobers failing against Aus would call into question whether he even deserves to be considered an ATG.

This is exactly why Ambrose is better than Imran. Ambrose destroyed the best team multiple times.

 

[subshakerz]

This is exactly why Ambrose is better than Imran. Ambrose destroyed the best team multiple times.

I mean, so did Imran. It's not like he failed against WI.

 

[Johan]

No. Ambrose is definitely better than them.

Nah Nah Nah, no reason for Lillee to be above Trueman.

 

[Johan]

Ambrose doesn’t get penalised for his record against India.
vs Ind : 9 Tests. 15 wkts. Avg of 38. SR of 99. No 5-Fer
He did not play a single Test in India.


Curtly Ambrose’s record against Pakistan isn’t that great as well.
14 Tests. 42 wickets. Avg of 28. SR of 69. 1 5-Fer

Not enough sample size here.

Ambrose played 4 tests against India when he was new and he was facing health problems he failed, and then he only got one series in 97 when the pitches were dead and he still bowled pretty well until the last two games where it didn't mean anything anyway as both were rain affected and draws without even 15 wickets falling, putting it into context there's nothing wrong with his record against India, just a lack of chances and a bad series when he was ill.

Pakistan is also skewed by his debut series being against them and him going for 7 @ 52.1, other than his debut series, he has 35 @ 23, hardly bad.

Donald was underwhelming against Australia in far too many serieses.

 

[DrWolverine]

9 Tests against India
14 Tests against Pakistan

That’s a more than enough sample size

 

[DrWolverine]

If we are excluding on debut or retirement series in case of Donald, his record improves as well.

in Aus : 5 Tests. 25 wickets. Avg of 23.48. SR of 51.

 

[Johan]

I already pointed out the context, he was ill in the 1989 series against India, and then only got one series against them in 1997 when the wickets were absolutely dead and last two games were the only times he failed, and those were given draws.

Citation for him being ill in the 1989 series

Suffering from fatigue and illness, Ambrose was less successful later in 1989 when India toured the West Indies: he took just five wickets in the four-Test series at an average of 54.60.

Curtly Ambrose - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of the bowlers, only Curtly Ambrose, tired and ill for a time, did not measure up to expectations.

The Indians in the West Indies, 1988-89

Even without playing to their full potential, West Indies were vastly superior to India in both the Test matches and the one-day internationals

www-espncricinfo-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Indian batsmen of the time are not a huge miss against pace bowling anyway.

 

[Johan]

If we are excluding on debut or retirement series in case of Donald, his record improves as well.

in Aus : 5 Tests. 25 wickets. Avg of 23.48. SR of 51.

I don't think Donald's record against Australia is a huge issue at the first place.

 

[DrWolverine]

Donald played 72 Tests. In his last 3 Tests, he took just 5 wickets and it was later revealed he played those matches with an injury.

IF Allan Donald retired with an injury and did not play those three games which slightly ruined his record, maybe he would have been judged better.

Record in different countries
in Zim : Avg of 11 in 2 Tests
in Ind : Avg of 16. 12 in 4 Tests
in SL : Avg of 19.3 in 3 Tests
in SA : Avg of 21.6 in 38 Tests
in Aus : Avg of 23.48 in 5 Tests
in Eng : Avg of 23.61 in 8 Tests
in NZ : Avg of 24.6 in 3 Tests
in WI : Avg of 24.9 in 5 Tests
in Pak : Avg of 32.2 in 2 Tests

Overall : 69 Tests. Avg of 21.64. 325 wickets.

An exceptional record

 

[shortpitched713]

He has an exceptional record even with those last 3 Tests.

 

[sayon basak]

Donald played 72 Tests. In his last 3 Tests, he took just 5 wickets and it was later revealed he played those matches with an injury.

IF Allan Donald retired with an injury and did not play those three games which slightly ruined his record, maybe he would have been judged better.

Record in different countries
in Zim : Avg of 11 in 2 Tests
in Ind : Avg of 16. 12 in 4 Tests
in SL : Avg of 19.3 in 3 Tests
in SA : Avg of 21.6 in 38 Tests
in Aus : Avg of 23.48 in 5 Tests
in Eng : Avg of 23.61 in 8 Tests
in NZ : Avg of 24.6 in 3 Tests
in WI : Avg of 24.9 in 5 Tests
in Pak : Avg of 32.2 in 2 Tests

Overall : 69 Tests. Avg of 21.64. 325 wickets.

An exceptional record

Again, you have to keep in mind that people don't just read through cricinfo averages to judge a player.

 

[Bolo.]

Donald played 72 Tests. In his last 3 Tests, he took just 5 wickets and it was later revealed he played those matches with an injury.

IF Allan Donald retired with an injury and did not play those three games which slightly ruined his record, maybe he would have been judged better.

Record in different countries
in Zim : Avg of 11 in 2 Tests
in Ind : Avg of 16. 12 in 4 Tests
in SL : Avg of 19.3 in 3 Tests
in SA : Avg of 21.6 in 38 Tests
in Aus : Avg of 23.48 in 5 Tests
in Eng : Avg of 23.61 in 8 Tests
in NZ : Avg of 24.6 in 3 Tests
in WI : Avg of 24.9 in 5 Tests
in Pak : Avg of 32.2 in 2 Tests

Overall : 69 Tests. Avg of 21.64. 325 wickets.

An exceptional record

Very much not later revealed. He had missed the last couple of series before playing AUS.

The images of him getting carried off the field in his last game were also very famous at the time.

 

[subshakerz]

Nah Nah Nah, no reason for Lillee to be above Trueman.

Just a more competitive era and Trueman even more of a home bully.