Imran Khan vs Allan Donald

[subshakerz]

Donald played 72 Tests. In his last 3 Tests, he took just 5 wickets and it was later revealed he played those matches with an injury.

IF Allan Donald retired with an injury and did not play those three games which slightly ruined his record, maybe he would have been judged better.

Record in different countries
in Zim : Avg of 11 in 2 Tests
in Ind : Avg of 16. 12 in 4 Tests
in SL : Avg of 19.3 in 3 Tests
in SA : Avg of 21.6 in 38 Tests
in Aus : Avg of 23.48 in 5 Tests
in Eng : Avg of 23.61 in 8 Tests
in NZ : Avg of 24.6 in 3 Tests
in WI : Avg of 24.9 in 5 Tests
in Pak : Avg of 32.2 in 2 Tests

Overall : 69 Tests. Avg of 21.64. 325 wickets.

An exceptional record

Great record but again let's understand the context.

Short career in terms of number of games centered mostly around his peak with comparatively less away games and very supportive home wickets, and outside of Eng and Aus, only single tours of NZ, WI, SL, Pak, India only four tests.

So his stats are boosted frankly especially compared to peer pacers like Ambrose, Wasim and McGrath with around 100 tests and many more away tours.

 

[Johan]

Just a more competitive era and Trueman even more of a home bully.

Nothing more competitive about Lillee's eras, if anything, England of the 70s were substantially weaker than Australia and West Indies of 50s and 60s in batting.

 

[subshakerz]

Nothing more competitive about Lillee's eras, if anything, England of the 70s were substantially weaker than Australia and West Indies of 50s and 60s in batting.

WI were more strong and Ind, Pak also had fairly strong lineups. England we can debate depending on when in the 70s.

And you can't dispute Trueman was even more built on home success.

 

[Johan]

WI were more strong and Ind, Pak also had fairly strong lineups. England we can debate depending on when in the 70s.

And you can't dispute Trueman was even more built on home success.

Yeah but Trueman was better in the West Indies and at home while Lillee was better in the Ashes rivals home, more important, Trueman is the most destructive bowler in the history of the game and a ridiculously competent wicket taker, he shouldn't be away from Lillee.

In a sense, they're very similar bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but Trueman was better in the West Indies and at home while Lillee was better in the Ashes rivals home, more important, Trueman is the most destructive bowler in the history of the game and a ridiculously competent wicket taker, he shouldn't be away from Lillee.

In a sense, they're very similar bowlers.

You are the one who convinced me Lillee in fact did quite well in the WSC series in WI.

Trueman in Aus is a disappointment.

 

[DrWolverine]

Again, you have to keep in mind that people don't just read through cricinfo averages to judge a player.

I watched almost his entire career and he was exceptional and surprised why ppl don’t rate him highly.

 

[DrWolverine]

The images of him getting carried off the field in his last game were also very famous at the time.

Donald was one of my favourites and seeing him get battered by the Australians during his final few tests was heart breaking.

It’s because of that I feel cricketers should retire at their peak and not after they become a pale shadow of their best versions.

 

[sayon basak]

I watched almost his entire career and he was exceptional and surprised why ppl don’t rate him highly.

I mean, I agree that he is very underrated. Just don't think that they do so based on his average in different countries.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think Donald's record against Australia is a huge issue at the first place.

Donald played five series against them, excluding his last test, and was worldclass in only one. His underperformance cost SA the title of best team in the world frankly when they were competitive with Aus.

 

[Johan]

You are the one who convinced me Lillee in fact did quite well in the WSC series in WI.

Trueman in Aus is a disappointment.

Yeah but I think 1960-61 West Indies tour from Freddie is even better than Lillee's WI WSC

He got some Steyn esque flat wickets in Australia, actually, In Australia

Trueman: 27.49
Other English bowlers: 40.72

Steyn: 28.77
Other Saffer bowlers: 41.42

him not playing in the 55 Aussie Ashes is tragic though.

 

[DrWolverine]

Short career in terms of number of games

That’s a reason I don’t rate him in Top Tier

But he was unlucky to have missed few years as well

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but I think 1960-61 West Indies tour from Freddie is even better than Lillee's WI WSC

He got some Steyn esque flat wickets in Australia, actually, In Australia

Trueman: 27.49
Other English bowlers: 40.72

Steyn: 28.77
Other Saffer bowlers: 41.42

him not playing in the 55 Aussie Ashes is tragic though.

Ok but Lillee isn't really weak away anywhere like Trueman in Aus (thought you value Ashes contests highly), his Pak series excepted.

 

[subshakerz]

That’s a reason I don’t rate him in Top Tier

But he was unlucky to have missed few years as well

Sure. My suspicion is if he had more his tests his stats in certain countries would have suffered a bit.

 

[DrWolverine]

Donald played five series against them, excluding his last test, and was worldclass in only one. His underperformance cost SA the title of best team in the world frankly when they were competitive with Aus.

To say Donald’s failure against Australia is the reason they lost the title of best team is not fair.

McGrath underperformed against SouthAfrica but Australia still won because Steve Waugh did well against them and Shane Warne took care of the rest

 

[Johan]

Ok but Lillee isn't really weak away anywhere like Trueman in Aus (thought you value Ashes contests highly), his Pak series excepted.

True, but I think Trueman being better at home + in NZ/WI is enough to give him the ever so slight edge over Lillee in England, especially considering the differing contexts of Trueman in Aus and Lillee in England.

 

[DrWolverine]

Sure. My suspicion is if he had more his tests his stats in certain countries would have suffered a bit.

Maybe. Maybe not.

We can judge a player by how he has performed and not by speculation.

Marshall’s record would have suffered in my opinion if he didn’t retire or get dropped at 33

 

[subshakerz]

True, but I think Trueman being better at home + in NZ/WI is enough to give him the ever so slight edge over Lillee in England, especially considering the differing contexts of Trueman in Aus and Lillee in England.

I'm not as forgivable about Trueman in Aus as you are.

End of the day, Lillee to me faced stronger opposition overall and just has a slightly better overall record.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall’s record would have suffered in my opinion if he didn’t retire or get dropped at 33

Yeah it's a valid critique. Especially when we are comparing him with Hadlee and Imran who played until nearly 40.

 

[Johan]

I'm not as forgivable about Trueman in Aus as you are.

End of the day, Lillee to me faced stronger opposition overall and just has a slightly better overall record.

with all due respect, this is not true.

The strongest opposition both men could face was the West Indies, check the records there.

 

[trundler]

2 guys who are maligned who are maligned by nitpickers for no good reason but are the cream of the crop and roughly as good as each other.