If Vaughan, Trescothick and Jones had been fit England would have won.

[PhoenixFire]

Wow, how overrated is Vaughan? Lucky he's a decent captain or his spot would be in danger. He averages 35 since he has become captain.

A test average of 43, 15 hundreds suggests otherwise. Not many players can average 48 against Australia.

 

[GIMH]

Wow, how overrated is Vaughan? Lucky he's a decent captain or his spot would be in danger. He averages 35 since he has become captain.

Trescothick - Mentally weak, would've gone for single figures in every match. Wouldn't have the strength for a long series

Jones - Had, what, 4 good matches? And people were hailing him as one of the best bowlers to walk the earth. The other English bowlers can't reverse swing the Kookaburra, gentlemen, so Jones wouldn't have.

Still would've been 4-0.

With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?

Trescothick - yes mentally weak atm, hence why he went home. Tresco at full-fitness, second highest runscorer out last year, and after Flintoff and Warne, who both played like freaks, he was the most consistent player last year.

It's not just the English who think Jones would have made a difference, Aussies generally do as well. We've all pretty much accepted we would have lost the Ashes anyway, but if you think any one of them would have made no difference to the extent of our defeats, you're living in cloud ****ooland.

 

[sideshowtim]

With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?

I'm just saying his form in recent times has been poor. Very poor. Fire it in on off stump and you'll clean bowl him. Ever since he became captain his batting has been shunned and overlooked and he hasn't contributed as much.

Ponting averages something like 65 as captain.

 

[PhoenixFire]

I'm just saying his form in recent times has been poor. Very poor. Fire it in on off stump and you'll clean bowl him. Ever since he became captain his batting has been shunned and overlooked and he hasn't contributed as much.

Ponting averages something like 65 as captain.

Who was comparing him to Ponting???

 

[social]

Margin of victories have been so huge that, whilst conceding that they would make a difference, it ludicrous to suggest that the score-line would be any other than it is right now

 

[Shoggz]

Margin of victories have been so huge that, whilst conceding that they would make a difference, it ludicrous to suggest that the score-line would be any other than it is right now

I don't think it's as simple as that.

Ostensibly in 2005, Australia had the better players as now, but England matched their intensity and desire to win. I believe Michael Vaughan was a huge factor in that. Also, little pieces of luck helped the English (Ricky Ponting's decision to bowl at Edgbaston, Glen McGrath's injuries etc.) which meant that England didn't lose momentum. That luck has conspicuously left them this time.

In this series, the whole tone has been different and the Aussies have made the most of it.
They got off to a magnificent start in Brisbane and (unlike 2005) have kept their boot on the English throat! England have been sliding backwards with every match, becoming more and more shell-shocked. Whilst being an outstanding player, I don't think Freddie Flintoff's captaincy style is suited to playing Australia. You need to be more "hard-nosed" and calculating (a la Vaughan), rather than the 'lead from the front' style, particularly when not 100% fit.

I believe that if Vaughan and an in-form Jones had been playing, the Australians would still be winning, but the margin would be much less and the matches more competitive.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't think Trescothick would have done any better than Cook, with one good score with some mediocre scores.

The real question then is if Trescothick and Jones were Ashes 2005 fit.

 

[Salamuddin]

With each post I read of yours, you become more of a disastrous poster. You don't think his average since he became captain is anything to do with him being captain?

Trescothick - yes mentally weak atm, hence why he went home. Tresco at full-fitness, second highest runscorer out last year, and after Flintoff and Warne, who both played like freaks, he was the most consistent player last year.

It's not just the English who think Jones would have made a difference, Aussies generally do as well. We've all pretty much accepted we would have lost the Ashes anyway, but if you think any one of them would have made no difference to the extent of our defeats, you're living in cloud ****ooland.

Yeah but this series is being played in Australia in case you hadn't noticed....Tres averages 35 away from home which is pretty poor for a supoosedly world class player.

 

[valvolux]

Vaughans last tour in Australia he had a great time, Trescothick always hits runs against Australia, a 50 every other innings which would probably save us in at least one game (I dont know which one, though) and Simon Jones is always great, It wouldve been a better contest and you wouldve been sweating a fair bit more, i tell you that

Vaughan has been out of form for ages, Trescothick can barely lift a bat these days, and Jones would've had no more success than Mahmood or Anderson considering they've had zero success getting the Kooka to reverse.

Making assumptions that these guys would've all fired if included is way off the mark - look at ol Freddie - he's turned out to be nothing more than a handy bowler in Australia...not a consistent strike bowler, and certainly not an all rounder. Why would've these guys been any different?

It's not as if England are just starting to play rubbish cricket. They've been playing rubbish since lords 05. This is no stutter...stutters last one series, like the ashes 05 for the Aussies....this is a slide. The only players who Australia might've developed a plan B for is Flintoff and Pietersen - we've already exposed Flintoff the batsman, have conquored Flintoff the bowler...we are still working on Pietersen, but I think his psych is starting to wilt.

No one in world cricket fears England - Sri Lanka, Pakistan and India have already proven that. England are going to finish 6th overall for their 2006 results. You might care to remember that in their holy year of 2005, they finished worse than this - 7th.

You are still judging your team on their very best performances - sure their best is pretty good, but why do they all have such mediocre career records? Because they hardly ever produce their best, and they certainly struggle to produce their best away from home. What you have there is inconsistent cricketers. There will be no England dynasty.....the run is already finished...and all you've won is 2 tests against a McGrathless Australia at home, and another 2 tests against a Pollockless South Africa away (let's not bother counting the windies as I do recall our home triumph was dismissed as being meaningless).

I do remember the scoffing when people dared to suggest what might've happened if these rather important players were on the field. The difference is predictions of what might've happened if McGrath or Pollock were playing are a lot easier to make - they are champions who consistently produce - Vaughan, Trescothick and Jones, are not.

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

If Vaughan and Trescothick had played, Bell and probably Collingwood may have been left out, and England would lose by more.

Trescothick would have been destroyed this series.

 

[tooextracool]

Look when a side is 4-0 down theres no way anyone can single out one reason only for England losing the Ashes. How many times have i mentioned over the last 3 years that the selection comittee is an absolute joke? A lot of the people seemed to think hey, our test side won the Ashes and we've been doing quite well in tests, hence our selectors are quite good in tests and useless in ODIs. Where is the logic in that? You're either a dumbass or your quite intelligent, you cannot vary between both in different forms of the game. Yes England would presumably have done better with all 3 of those in the side, but the selections of Jones over Read, Giles over Panesar, Flintoff as captain, Liam Plunkett in the squad were always daft selections and nothing has changed since then. If anything this Ashes has once again shown us that previous success had more to do with the quality of captaincy- Hussain and Vaughan- rather than the quality of the coach. Until the whole selection comittee is given a drastic shake up i cant see England getting out of this slump. The likes of Graveney, Fletcher and Flintoff should never come close to making another selection and a whole new personnel needs to be produced by the ECB if they indeed want to live up to their promise of being the best test team at the end of this year.

 

[tooextracool]

If Vaughan and Trescothick had played, Bell and probably Collingwood may have been left out, and England would lose by more.

Trescothick would have been destroyed this series.

I think id rather have the intelligence and logic of Trescothick and Vaughan over any of the absolute brainlessness displayed by Flintoff not only on the field but in the selection process. I cant understand which one of our idiotic selectors came up with " Hey look at the common sense and intelligence displayed by Flintoff when hes batting, i think he'd make a great captain especially with all that grade cricket captaincy experience and with all his injuries he'd make a perfect replacement for our injuried first choice captain."

 

[tooextracool]

Jones is another hard call to make. The reverse swinging genius of 2005 is obviously a huge miss, but let's not forget he was actually dropped for the 4th test of our SA tour the previous winter.

and we all remember what a great selection decision that was. Obviously 10 wickets 28 odd a piece in his first 3 tests, along with a match winning performance in the first test, werent good enough for the selectors who seemed to think that they would be better off replacing him with a bowler who had little to no recent FC cricket and had been an international failure until then in James Anderson. Surprisingly enough when he returned in the 5th test he took 4/47.

Whether his Extra Strongs would've been as effective on the Kookaburra as they were on the Duke is also difficult to say with any degree of certainty. The consensus is that the Kookaburra isn't as conducive to reverse so it's probably fair to say he may not have been as effective, but it's equally fair to say he'd have done better than Anderson or Mahmood.

Anderson apparently got the ball to go in the warm up games, and Jones has in the past got the kookaburra ball to reverse in Australian conditions so i cant see why he wouldnt have got the ball to reverse even if not as effectively as in the Ashes last time.

 

[tooextracool]

Jones - Had, what, 4 good matches? And people were hailing him as one of the best bowlers to walk the earth. The other English bowlers can't reverse swing the Kookaburra, gentlemen, so Jones wouldn't have.

Im sick and tired of this labelling of Jones as a reverse swing specialist. Any clown that watched him bowl at TB in 2005 or in the series against Bangladesh can see that hes more than capable of swinging the ball conventionally. Further anyone who can bowl at 90mph with a perfectly upright seam is bound to cause problems to any batsman on any wicket that offers even the remotest assistance. I think that if it werent for injuries, Jones would be amongst the top 2 bowlers in the world today.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If Vaughan and Trescothick had played, Bell and probably Collingwood may have been left out, and England would lose by more.

Oh yes, especially because Bell has dominated with an average of 29 this series. Blinding stuff really.

I'm blinded... really.

 

[GIMH]

I'm just saying his form in recent times has been poor. Very poor. Fire it in on off stump and you'll clean bowl him. Ever since he became captain his batting has been shunned and overlooked and he hasn't contributed as much.

Ponting averages something like 65 as captain.

Okay fair point. Apologies for my outburst, it was OTT.