How would 80s WI and 2000s Australia fare in unbeatable current India?

[kyear2]

But you do realize that both of you-all believe you're right, and the other person is wrong.

 

[subshakerz]

O Keefe was decent and come on, Lyon is clearly a good player. You’ve said it yourself (you rate him well ahead of Jadeja and somewhere near Ashwin) so no idea what he’s doing in that list. “Oh look a good player performed well! The pitches must have been ****”.

Patel also really had one test and was the only half threatening NZ bowler through so they just played him off and killed the rest. If you actually saw that test instead of going on stats, his bowling was nothing amazing. He wasn’t bad or anything like that but it was one of the weakest big hauls ever. His thing was that he was considerably better than the other trash so they tried to go after the others (which was easy). When they went after him, they got out. A real ripping 6-fer/7-fer like Ashwin and Jadeja have produced time and again at home are far more valuable than his 10-fer, as fun as it was.
Don’t go by the stats

Murphy remains to be seen how he goes but seems like a good player.
Hartley, Shoaib etc all have had one decent test - if Leach was fit at least one of them would be dumped regardless of how good their one test was. And Leach isn’t even a great bowler or anything.
You’re taking a ton of one off tests and putting it all together. Only really top spinners have performed, and even then it’s not like Lyon has outperformed Jadeja and Ashwin at home in supposedly helpful conditions over the course of their respective careers (though he’s definitely had some very good series).

You're again missing the point. You don't think the 80s and 90s had good spinners. Yet it was never this easy to get big hauls. No doubt Ashwin / Jadeja have done better than foreign spinners but those foreign spinners have done better than before. My point was simply that.

 

[Archer6K]

You're again missing the point. You don't think the 80s and 90s had good spinners. Yet it was never this easy to get big hauls. No doubt Ashwin / Jadeja have done better than foreign spinners but those foreign spinners have done better than before. My point was simply that.

Spinner’s bowling average in India in the 1990’s: 30.96
Spunner’s bowling average in India in the 2010’s: 31.87

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Spinner’s bowling average in India in the 1990’s: 30.96
Spunner’s bowling average in India in the 2010’s: 31.87

Barely any difference in averages so the difference in pitches is not much. Actually that means 2010s is less spin friendly I think?

 

[CricAddict]

Clarke was one test. Look at the 80s and 90s and tell me how many times foreign spinners had great tour figures for a series and then look at the overall performances of foreign spinners this decade compared to the rest. Tahir/Harmer in 2015. O'Keefe in 2017. Patel in 2021. Lyon multiple times. And then debutant spinners like Murphy, Kuhenman, Hartley, Shoaib, all immediately making a mark as if it is a magic coincidence.

No so, **** doesn't just happen.

Clearly all wickets taken in New Zealand ever should be ignored since a part timer like Philips has taken 5 wickets this test.

 

[Xix2565]

Clearly all wickets taken in New Zealand ever should be ignored since a part timer like Philips has taken 5 wickets this test.

Respect the Phiralidaran.

 

[subshakerz]

Clearly all wickets taken in New Zealand ever should be ignored since a part timer like Philips has taken 5 wickets this test.

Seems like pitches changing in countries is too nuanced a point here.

 

[Xix2565]

Yeah, the fact that other countries also doctor wickets is really not highlighted as much tbh.

 

[R!TTER]

Seems like pitches changing in countries is too nuanced a point here.

Funny how the pitches don't change as much when we tour there or SA for that matter

Primary team Afghanistan or Australia or Bangladesh or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Opposition team New Zealand

Host country New Zealand

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Grouped by team

Team	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
South Africa	18	2012-2024	10	24	407.0	67	1246	45	6/40	8/87	27.68	3.06	54.2	4	0
Australia	10	2010-2024	5	13	192.1	49	574	19	4/43	7/123	30.21	2.98	60.6	0	0
Pakistan	13	2011-2021	6	18	257.4	46	748	17	3/24	6/75	44.00	2.90	90.9	0	0
West Indies	12	2013-2020	7	21	355.3	55	1159	23	6/91	6/130	50.39	3.26	92.7	1	0
Bangladesh	13	2010-2022	7	28	399.5	37	1476	27	4/50	4/78	54.66	3.69	88.8	0	0
England	12	2013-2023	9	29	438.3	108	1309	23	5/157	8/237	56.91	2.98	114.3	1	0
India	9	2014-2020	4	11	149.0	20	460	8	3/99	3/99	57.50	3.08	111.7	0	0
Sri Lanka	14	2014-2023	8	24	374.1	27	1458	19	2/54	3/138	76.73	3.89	118.1	0	0

 

[_00_deathscar]

It’s pretty clear teams like NZ do all they can to not make a turners pitch at all for when India tour. And I don’t blame them, they’d be stupid to lay out a spinny pitch to welcome Ashwin+Jadeja unless they fancy being wiped.

 

[subshakerz]

It’s pretty clear teams like NZ do all they can to not make a turners pitch at all for when India tour. And I don’t blame them, they’d be stupid to lay out a spinny pitch to welcome Ashwin+Jadeja unless they fancy being wiped.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
Are you suggesting that pitches in India haven't been more generally more spin friendly in the last decade?

 

[ma1978]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
Are you suggesting that pitches in India haven't been more generally more spin friendly in the last decade?

that’s not what the numbers say. Certainly no more than any other decade.

 

[R!TTER]

The biggest difference is the pacers and DRS.

Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2003 and 1 Jan 2014

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Grouped by team

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Team	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
South Africa	11	2004-2010	7	41	717.5	121	2350	72	7/51	10/108	32.63	3.27	59.8	2	1
Australia	21	2004-2013	14	91	1499.5	320	4388	125	5/56	9/80	35.10	2.92	71.9	4	0
England	13	2006-2012	9	49	802.2	181	2357	66	6/57	7/86	35.71	2.93	72.9	1	0
India	14	2003-2013	37	139	2245.4	449	6957	184	5/91	8/137	37.80	3.09	73.2	2	0
New Zealand	16	2003-2012	7	37	702.2	137	2228	45	7/64	8/132	49.51	3.17	93.6	2	0

Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2014 and 1 Jan 2025

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Grouped by team

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

India	12	2015-2024	33	127	1454.3	299	4314	152	6/45	9/91	28.38	2.96	57.4	3	0
New Zealand	8	2016-2021	5	25	426.4	86	1272	35	5/69	8/144	36.34	2.98	73.1	1	0
South Africa	11	2015-2019	7	27	441.3	120	1200	31	5/40	6/54	38.70	2.71	85.4	1	0
Australia	8	2017-2023	8	24	347.3	74	1083	27	6/67	6/109	40.11	3.11	77.2	1	0
England	12	2016-2024	13	54	759.3	163	2322	57	5/73	5/63	40.73	3.05	79.9	1	0

The pitches have been more spin friendly for sure but you can't explain nearly a 10 point drop in avg for Indian pacers at home.

 

[Coronis]

The biggest difference is the pacers and DRS.

Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2003 and 1 Jan 2014

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Grouped by team

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Team	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
South Africa	11	2004-2010	7	41	717.5	121	2350	72	7/51	10/108	32.63	3.27	59.8	2	1
Australia	21	2004-2013	14	91	1499.5	320	4388	125	5/56	9/80	35.10	2.92	71.9	4	0
England	13	2006-2012	9	49	802.2	181	2357	66	6/57	7/86	35.71	2.93	72.9	1	0
India	14	2003-2013	37	139	2245.4	449	6957	184	5/91	8/137	37.80	3.09	73.2	2	0
New Zealand	16	2003-2012	7	37	702.2	137	2228	45	7/64	8/132	49.51	3.17	93.6	2	0

Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2014 and 1 Jan 2025

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Grouped by team

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

India	12	2015-2024	33	127	1454.3	299	4314	152	6/45	9/91	28.38	2.96	57.4	3	0
New Zealand	8	2016-2021	5	25	426.4	86	1272	35	5/69	8/144	36.34	2.98	73.1	1	0
South Africa	11	2015-2019	7	27	441.3	120	1200	31	5/40	6/54	38.70	2.71	85.4	1	0
Australia	8	2017-2023	8	24	347.3	74	1083	27	6/67	6/109	40.11	3.11	77.2	1	0
England	12	2016-2024	13	54	759.3	163	2322	57	5/73	5/63	40.73	3.05	79.9	1	0

The pitches have been more spin friendly for sure but you can't explain nearly a 10 point drop in avg for Indian pacers at home.

Explanation: They actually have some decent pace bowlers now

 

[subshakerz]

This thread has gone all on longer than I thought.

 

[R!TTER]

Explanation: They actually have some decent pace bowlers now

Yes but that alone doesn't explain the drop in avg - the effect of DRS coupled with T20 & on top of that better (Indian) bowlers does IMO. You could say T20+DRS could account for ~5 better avg, but really there's no way to quantify it because so many things keep on changing over time even within the rigid laws of cricket.

I pointed this out because it also explains why our spinners take more wickets & a lot more quickly, back in the day Oz/SA/Eng/NZ could all play out the odd draw on days 4/5 when the pitches really slowed up. Now even the home side (India) has issues doing that!

 

[Socerer 01]

This thread has gone all on longer than I thought.

gee i wonder why