• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

How does Sydney Barnes rank among bowlers?

How does CW rank Sydney Barnes as a bowler?


  • Total voters
    28

Migara

International Coach
As we know the leg-cutter is bowled by dragging the middle and index fingers DOWN the left-side of the ball.


View attachment 30756

What made Barnes, O’Reilly and Bedser believe that they spun the ball (rather than merely cut it) was that they flicked their third (ring) finger UPwards on the right-side of the ball. Obviously there would have been some down-ward movement of the middle and index fingers - but the revolutions on the ball primarily came from the third or ring finger.

And it is this unique ability that sets them apart, especially when bowled at medium pace.

(IMO of course)
Now this is the carom ball. It can be done with flicking the middle finger or the ring finger. People with slender long fingers use middle. People with big palms and strong fingers use the ring. Both produce identical trajectories (I can do both). Varun Chakravarthy uses this fourth finger carom ball.

 

Migara

International Coach
I get easily caught up in the Barnes hype. What I find amazing is when it's pointed out that Murali and Imran had sections in their careers where they were comparable
Nah, they were much better. Because the batting average of the era was significantly higher.
 

Migara

International Coach
Here is release of Varun Charkravarthy. Definietly fourth finger carom ball.


Now you may ask how I have got familiar with these variations. These are the variations used in softball / tapeball cricket in subcontinent. Ashwin, Mendis, Chakravarthy all have made in to hardball cricket via soft ball cricket. These are day to day knowledge if you have plated soft ball cricket for some time.
 

HookShot

U19 Vice-Captain
John Arlott wrote a tribute to Sydney Barnes in 1963 and stated.....

'His usual pace was about that of Alec Bedser, with a faster ball and a slower one, in well-concealed reserve, and the ability to bowl a yorker. He himself is content that he was essentially a spin bowler, that his movement through the air was, in modern technical language, swerve - obtained by spin - rather than `swing', which derives from the 'seam-up' method.'


'He himself is content that he was essentially a spin bowler' is the interesting part of the paragraph as it gets into the mind of Barnes himself.

I'm not sure how a bowler can consider himself to be a 'spinner' when bowling at the pace of Alec Bedser tbh, but there you go.

But then again, perhaps we are over-estimating the pace of Bedser when we watch those old black 'n white news reels?? Either that, or Barnes bowled literally everything during the course of an innings, from pace to genuine slowish spin bowling. After all, he was interviewed as saying "I liked to vary it a bit", or words to that effect.
 
Last edited:

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I think some people here are really, really, really struggling to grasp that spin =/= slow
It depends on how you define it, I guess but personally, I think of spin as something with the slow arm action and flighted trajectory, even if it is not that well flighted with drift.

Now, there are other ways to get "turn", and cut, as some of you have put it, is one way, where the effect is to get the ball to turn, same as "spin" but you can achieve it with a faster arm action and no real flight or drift.

If you see the slower ones of Bravo and Harshal Patel, and compare it to the regular offcutter a Cummins or a Bhuvi bowl, you will see the difference.

In my mind, spin and cut are two ways to achieve turn but they are not the same.
 

Migara

International Coach
Pretty sure MacGill bowled quicker and spun it more than me tbh.
Even for MacGill quicker it is, lesser spin. All the quicker spinners had a ceiling with their pace. Unless we are fantasizing that players of yesteryear had superhuman capabilities than the current lot from a much wider player base, there is a ceiling for a spinner to bowl and produce appreciable turn.

Nothing in sport is unique. Every technique, every trick, somewhere had been tried and tested before.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Pretty sure MacGill bowled quicker and spun it more than me tbh.
Yeah, I dont think the amount of turn is something that is a factor of the pace as such. But the ability to get drift and then turn, which amplifies whatever the amount of turn it is you are getting, you definitely need some flight for that to happen. Which is why the spinners' stock ball is different to the fast bowlers' slower balls even if they are turning the same way.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It depends on how you define it, I guess but personally, I think of spin as something with the slow arm action and flighted trajectory, even if it is not that well flighted with drift.
Now, there are other ways to get "turn", and cut, as some of you have put it, is one way, where the effect is to get the ball to turn, same as "spin" but you can achieve it with a faster arm action and no real flight or drift.
If you see the slower ones of Bravo and Harshal Patel, and compare it to the regular offcutter a Cummins or a Bhuvi bowl, you will see the difference.
In my mind, spin and cut are two ways to achieve turn but they are not the same.
Your definition fits in the modern definition, yes, but a lot of it has nothing to do with spinning the ball. In Barnes' era, spin meant getting movement off the wicket, and where cut was mentioned it was a specific technique and wasn't a distinction always made. It's often used interchangeably with 'break', a term especially common in very old writing.

This is because especially before about 1900, where there was only one new ball (I think the seam was often pretty flat in those days too), all bowlers who expected to be effective got movement by some form of sidespin, whether the ball was spinning perpendicular to the pitch or just a little out of line. The softer pitches back then would have definitely favoured this type of bowling, especially in England.

Even later on it's common for bowlers far faster than any modern spin bowler to be be described as 'getting spin'. 'Flight' is also used much more broadly than just tossing it above the eyeline.

Here's a couple of examples:

Wisden on Ted McDonald in 1921 said:
It is scarcely an exaggeration to describe him as the best bowler of his type since Lockwood, combining as he does great speed with a fine command of length and very pronounced spin.
For anyone's reference, this is Ted McDonald:

Wisden on Chud Langton said:
With the new ball he made his deliveries swing late and rise awkwardly and when the shine had worn off he was almost equally a problem to batsmen because of his command of length, flight and spin, and also change of pace.
This is Langton, typical what was called 'fast-medium' at the time.

Going further back, Tom Richardson was considered genuinely fast yet plenty of reference is made to him getting a lot of spin. It's a usage that only completely dies out at the Second World War.

I should mention that with the predominance of spin grips were different too. The 'two up, one down' grip almost universal amongst modern fast bowlers was rare then and people held the ball all sorts of ways.
 

Nikhil99.99

U19 Cricketer
This thread has almost come to close.15 out of 23 voters have S.F Barnes in top 10 I.e 65 percent.2 have him no.1 ,4 in top 3,5 in top 5 and 4 in the 10.Being in top 10 is a big compliment for any player.And majority have S.F in there.Almost half have him in top 5,47 percent.
 

Top