Hashim Amla- the most misleading odi stats ever

[ankitj]

In that 2013 series, he absolutely was, inspite of bowling on absolute roads. Made Yuvraj and Raina look like absolute chumps with some of his short pitched bowling, however, Kohli played him very well. Then of course he went on to destroy England in the summer..

We have to ask the next natural question ― "Were Yuvraj and Raina any good though?"

 

[vcs]

Good point. I think Kohli gets cut some slack because he has bossed it in the last few t20 world cups .

2nd Semi-Final (N), World T20 at Dhaka, Apr 4 2014 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

Beast knock in the 2014 world cup semi final to win the game. He did fine in the final also, but was let down by an all time horror knock by Yuvi at the other end.

He also was good in the last world cup, he bossed Australia in a virtual quarter final (MOTM) and knocked 82 at a strike rate of 190 in the semi final they lost against West Indies. He also took a wicket when bowling. He was let down by a horror innings by Rahane, in both losses he excelled and obviously they would not have got to those stages without his heroics.

He hasn't really done it in ODI world cups and champions trophies to be fair.

Wish I could like this post more than once. Seems completely daft to me to point to Kohli's lack of success in ODI WCs as a hole in his resume, when he's played incredible knocks in pressure-cooker situations in T20 WCs. I mean, that innings against Australia in the 2016 WT20 was just unbelievable. Very, very few players have done something like that in a knockout game (Hussey in 2010, Grant Elliott in the last World Cup are the only examples that really come to mind). Even if he flops in the next ODI WC, those WT20 knocks are a big part of Kohli's achievements in limited overs cricket.

 

[srbhkshk]

you mean the last final?

Nah, the league match against Sri Lanka.

 

[Bolo]

The point isn't picking holes in Kohli's WC results, it's that most of the greatest batsmen have holes in WC records. Too high a bar is set in general. For everyone here to acknowledge a good WC record you basically need good overall stats, overperformance in knockouts and to have your team win.

This basically leaves Viv, Tendulkar and Ponting as candidates, and I'm sure there would be people willing to argue some of these.

Conflating T20 and ODI is not valid IMO though. They are very different games. And I barely see champions trophy as more meaningful than a bilateral, but fair play to those with a different opinion on the CT.

 

[akilana]

Wish I could like this post more than once. Seems completely daft to me to point to Kohli's lack of success in ODI WCs as a hole in his resume, when he's played incredible knocks in pressure-cooker situations in T20 WCs. I mean, that innings against Australia in the 2016 WT20 was just unbelievable. Very, very few players have done something like that in a knockout game (Hussey in 2010, Grant Elliott in the last World Cup are the only examples that really come to mind). Even if he flops in the next ODI WC, those WT20 knocks are a big part of Kohli's achievements in limited overs cricket.

Yesterday, nobody cares about championtrophy.

Today, T20 WC success make up failure in ODIs WC.

 

[akilana]

The point isn't picking holes in Kohli's WC results, it's that most of the greatest batsmen have holes in WC records. Too high a bar is set in general. For everyone here to acknowledge a good WC record you basically need good overall stats, overperformance in knockouts and to have your team win.

This basically leaves Viv, Tendulkar and Ponting as candidates, and I'm sure there would be people willing to argue some of these.

Conflating T20 and ODI is not valid IMO though. They are very different games. And I barely see champions trophy as more meaningful than a bilateral, but fair play to those with a different opinion on the CT.

Come on, Sachin wasn’t a big fan of KO matches.

 

[vcs]

Yesterday, nobody cares about championtrophy.

Today, T20 WC success make up failure in ODIs WC.

Good point. The "no one cares about Champions Trophy" was a bit of a throwaway line TBH since I hadn't looked up Kallis's record in that. I don't really believe it should be discounted, I'd maybe give it a weightage somewhere midway between bilaterals and WCs. Even then, Kallis's record doesn't come close to Tendulkar's.

I stand by the WT20 comment though, when you're the sole hope for chasing down 50 off 25 or whatever in front of a home crowd with Yuvraj wasting balls at one end, it's a heroic knock. Only Grant Elliott and Hussey have done stuff like that.

 

[Burgey]

Interestingly, the three best chasers of all time - Bevan, Dhoni and Hussey all have world cup records well below their regular averages. All three have been involved in World Cup wins too.

Australia was that dominant in 2007 he barely got a hit. They had to rejig the batting order in one of the games to give him a go.

 

[akilana]

Good point. The "no one cares about Champions Trophy" was a bit of a throwaway line TBH since I hadn't looked up Kallis's record in that. I don't really believe it should be discounted, I'd maybe give it a weightage somewhere midway between bilaterals and WCs. Even then, Kallis's record doesn't come close to Tendulkar's.

I stand by the WT20 comment though, when you're the sole hope for chasing down 50 off 25 or whatever in front of a home crowd with Yuvraj wasting balls at one end, it's a heroic knock. Only Grant Elliott and Hussey have done stuff like that.

Kallis was MoTM in both semi and final. I can’t recall but I think Sachin didn’t do much in 2 CT and WC finals.

As for T20, I don’t remember anything from this format except that India won the first one.

 

[stephen]

Australia was that dominant in 2007 he barely got a hit. They had to rejig the batting order in one of the games to give him a go.

I'm well aware of that.

My point was that stats can sometimes be misleading.

And anyone who thinks that the world t20 is even in the same league as the world cup is dreaming. It's a meaningless tournament in a format best played at the domestic level.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah this thread is confusing me with several people referring to the world T20 as "The World Cup"

The World Cup is more important . . . because Australia actually win that one sometimes

 

[Daemon]

Earlier someone said Gilchrist = Dhoni as an ODI bat. How ****ing ridiculous is that statement. Not too long ago people were saying he had a case for being the best batsman of all time. The last few years have really ****ed his legacy.

 

[stephen]

Gilchrist and Dhoni are virtually impossible to compare as ODI bats. Their roles were so different.

Gilchrist was one of the best "explosive openers" and Dhoni was one of the best "finishers".

 

[ankitj]

An average of under 36 shows Gilchrist was not quite as good as the gold tier demands. This would be obvious if he was not a wicket-keeper too which leads people to conflate his overall value to an ODI team with his batsmanship.

 

[Burgey]

You could pick other blokes through the spudly round robin part of the tournament and just bring Gilly in for the finals. Problem solved.

 

[sunilz]

Problem with judging a cricketer solely on their average is that it will lead u to conclude that Kohli is the greatest ODI cricketer and Sachin was an over-rated ODI batsman as he is not in top 10 in the batting average list
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Gilchrist was much better ODI batsman than his average. You could count on him to score runs in crunch situation .

 

[ankitj]

Problem with judging a cricketer solely on their average is that it will lead u to conclude that Kohli is the greatest ODI cricketer and Sachin was an over-rated ODI batsman as he is not in top 10 in the batting average list
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Gilchrist was much better ODI batsman than his average. You could count on him to score runs in crunch situation .

Well of course you can look at few other things. And I agree that Gilchrist is better than others at comparable average. But (1) there are others like Sehwag, Jayasuriya etc. who are in similar boat, and (2) bridging the gap between average of 36 vs. ~45 for openers (Tendulkar averaged 48 as opener) takes a lot because other great openers were not plodders either. We are talking about gold tier here.

 

[sunilz]

Well of course you can look at few other things. And I agree that Gilchrist is better than others at comparable average. But (1) there are others like Sehwag, Jayasuriya etc. who are in similar boat, and (2) bridging the gap between average of 36 vs. ~45 for openers (Tendulkar averaged 48 as opener) takes a lot because other great openers were not plodders either. We are talking about gold tier here.

Sehwag was extremely inconsistent as ODI batsman. You can check his career wise ICC rating. Whereas Jayasuriya has extremely low batting average against AUS and SA.

Gilchrist is not in same league as Sachin, VIV, Kohli or Devilliers, however there are not many competition to him as second ODI opener in ODI ATG XI

 

[stephen]

Yep. Gold tier is 35 average with 95 strike rate and another key skill (bowling/ keeping). Which is Gilchrist and Jayasuria. The silver tier players did that without being able to bowl/ keep.

Tendulkar, while no slouch with the bat, was not quite as explosive and fits more into the "high average+solid strike rate openers" category like Waugh and Lara.

The very best batting teams had both types of opener (explosive + high average).

 

[ankitj]

Sehwag was extremely inconsistent as ODI batsman. You can check his career wise ICC rating. Whereas Jayasuriya has extremely low batting average against AUS and SA.

Gilchrist is not in same league as Sachin, VIV, Kohli or Devilliers, however there are not many competition to him as second ODI opener in ODI ATG XI

I think there are quite a few. Usually, second opener is where the opportunity cost of fitting an all-rounder is lowest so I go Watson or Jayasuriya. If I were to pick the second best opener, I would go with Greenidge. There are others like Anwar, M. Waugh, Hayden etc. who are worth a shout.

Sehwag is pretty much ruled out of this conversation because his secondary skill is all but non-existent.