Hashim Amla- the most misleading odi stats ever

[Dendarii]

In reference to the non-performances at certain stages of tournaments that often gets bandied around here, I think that although pressure does sometimes tell the idea of certain players being 'clutch players' is mostly nonsense with random variation over a small sample being most of the explaining factor.

Also, Amla is South African - aren't they genetically incapable of performing in knockout games? It seems unfair to hold that against him.

 

[harsh.ag]

If Dravid had to keep I might not pick him at all in a third of the ODI teams throughout history tbh. He was awful at that.

Fair enough.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Although Kallis does have two half-centuries a century in Champions Trophy knockout matches (even if the last one isn't a particular good example as it's one of the more famous South African chokes).

1st SF (D/N), Wills International Cup at Dhaka, Oct 30 1998 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

4th QF, ICC KnockOut at Nairobi, Oct 10 2000 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

1st SF (D/N), ICC Champions Trophy at Colombo, Sep 25 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

lol "not a particularly good example"? It's a perfect example of the opposite! Kallis should have got man of the match . . . for India

 

[SeamUp]

lol "not a particularly good example"? It's a perfect example of the opposite! Kallis should have got man of the match . . . for India

Different time back then when you set up innings to have a hit in the last 10. Also whilst the SR could have maybe been slightly higher wickets were falling around him. Scorecards can be easy to look at, at face value but they don't tell you game situation etc

When you think the real change at the top only started 6 years before that in 1996 and the idea of targeting a bit up front was trying to become the template. That is how far the game has gone - not sure whether good or bad.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Different time back then when you set up innings to have a hit in the last 10. Also whilst the SR could have maybe been slightly higher wickets were falling around him. Scorecards can be easy to look at, at face value but they don't tell you game situation etc

When you think the real change at the top only started 6 years before that in 1996 and the idea of targeting a bit up front was trying to become the template. That is how far the game has gone - not sure whether good or bad.

Nah you're being a bit too generous. The SA lower order are also partly to blame as well though, Klusener & Boucher should have done much better and despite Kallis' go-slow they still should have gotten home.

You could even say that all the wickets falling around him were due in a large part to him, other players forcing the issue because he wasn't scoring.

 

[harsh.ag]

That game was lost by the SA lower order, no doubt. Was surreal to watch after Gibbs.

 

[Niall]

Gilchrist gets rated highly after stinking up the whole tournament and then performing against the mighty Sri Lankans

His record otherwise is decent. Highly overrated. Only thing he has going for him is that he's not your typical #cheatingaussie.

To be fair to Sri Lanka in 2007 they were a genuinely quality outfit who were probably the second best side there and had a bowling attack of Murali, Vaas and Malinga all gun players. Amla has failed against weaker bowling attacks than that when its counted.

 

[StephenZA]

Kallis had one job... keep the largely brittle SA order together so that the big hitters could get the job done in the last 10. And largely it worked.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Tbf, in that game gibbs made what were difficult conditions to score in look insanely easy. Everyone else just looked awful by comparison.

 

[stephen]

Gibbs - now there's a man with underrated abilities. Could bat.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Did he have mental issues or am I just imagining that?

 

[Victor Ian]

1)When you could find that only 4 of his 26 hundreds came in chases and sure a couple of them would be against minnows, it only proves my point that he is not a good chaser and succumbs to pressure situation.

Does the converse also hold true....that he must be amazing at setting up games for the bowlers to win and creates huge pressure for the opposition? Why does no one talk about Dhoni the setterupperer? Was he ****?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Does the converse also hold true....that he must be amazing at setting up games for the bowlers to win and creates huge pressure for the opposition? Why does no one talk about Dhoni the setterupperer? Was he ****?

Dhoni's actually always done well up the order. Averages 66 in 44 matches at 3 and 4.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Most Indian fans agree that he's a pretty crap finisher now and should move to No.4.

 

[karan316]

But it's the Most Misleading thread title ever

lmao

 

[sunilz]

Does the converse also hold true....that he must be amazing at setting up games for the bowlers to win and creates huge pressure for the opposition? Why does no one talk about Dhoni the setterupperer? Was he ****?

Because if u are an elite batsman , u are supposed to be nearly great in both department. People accuse Tendulkar of being choker because of matches like this. This record will put him in unfavourable position when compared to Richards, Kohli .


1st Test, Pakistan tour of India at Chennai, Jan 28-31 1999 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

2nd ODI (D/N), India tour of Pakistan at Rawalpindi, Mar 16 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

5th ODI (D/N), Australia tour of India at Hyderabad, Nov 5 2009 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

And if someone like Amla has only 4 century in 2nd innings , it will always be held against him unless he improves that record.

 

[sunilz]

Dhoni's actually always done well up the order. Averages 66 in 44 matches at 3 and 4.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Most Indian fans agree that he's a pretty crap finisher now and should move to No.4.

Dhoni's average in these situation is massively inflated because he promoted himself up the order when India was 100/1 or 200/2 type of situation. Didn't Sehwag or Gambhir accuse him of protecting his average in AUS tour 2011/12 ODI tri-seies , when Indian top order was consistently failing and Dhoni wasn't promoting himself up the order to sort out the situation.

 

[stephen]

For someone with as remarkable of a record as Dhoni I find it very difficult to recall any of his actual innings. I think that has more to do with the way he went about his business than anything else. Or it could be the "protecting his average" thing meaning he hid when the going got tough.

 

[stephen]

Interesting. Against Australia Dhoni only batted at 4 three times and all three times India had over 150 on the board.

Batting 5 was a mix of coming in at 3-100 and 3-250. Made his ton coming in at 3-97 and his half ton coming in at 3-53.

Batting 6 his half centuries came at 4-87, 4-64, and 4-108. His century came at 4-74. For a #6 to make a significant contribution you would expect that there had been a bit of a collapse though.

As far as I can tell he never did too much of significance against McGrath, though he retired early in his career. Both of his tons though were against Johnson who was a very good ODI quick.

Overall Dhoni averaged 41 vs Australia and 35 against Australia in Australia which are both very good numbers but are way below his overall record.

Interestingly both of his tons were in games where India lost the toss and were sent in to bat.

He's played Australia 4 times in big tournaments - twice in the world cup and twice in the champion's trophy. He made scores of 7, 65 and 28. He did not bat the other time. I'm not sure too much can be made of those numbers.

 

[harsh.ag]

In ODIs, you have to look past numbers a lot more than tests. More important is the make up of the side and how well the player performs his given role.

It's why Dhoni is under fire now, despite still having a high average and SR. He isn't performing his role anymore.

 

[stephen]

In ODIs, you have to look past numbers a lot more than tests. More important is the make up of the side and how well the player performs his given role.

It's why Dhoni is under fire now, despite still having a high average and SR. He isn't performing his role anymore.

Absolutely agree. At his peak Dhoni was best off coming in at around the 30th over to see India home.

And possibly why I think picking an all time ODI side is much harder than a test side (6 batsmen, 4 bowlers and a keeper).