Harris vs. Hauritz vs. Swann

[NZTailender]

Boys boys boys, we could argue long into the nights about who is better but until both players have toured the world a bit more we can't exactly say one is clearly and definitely ahead of the other. Maybe we can revisit this debate in at least a year, or even better, just after the down under Ashes, which you would think would be the perfect battleground for these two spinners.

Personally I'm just enjoying the fact these guys are doing so well when so many people rubbished them.

 

[Matt79]

Awta.

 

[Jarquis]

Guarantee that there will still be people willing to ignore the disparity of the England and Australian batting line ups come the Ashes this winter.

 

[GIMH]

We'll retain the Ashes and Swanneh will get MOTS. 47 wickets and twelve centuries.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah, thank god that in his career so far Swanneh has got to bowl to dross like Tendulkar, Chanderpaul, Ponting, Smith & Kallis.

It's true though mate - traditional offies would have to be a class player's favourite type of bowling to face, surely? Without a well-disguised doosra, then I can't see traditional offies consistently troubling decent sides unless there's a ****load in the deck for them.
That doesn't mean each of them aren't performing their craft well, it's probably got more to do with where their craft currently stands in big cricket.

 

[GIMH]

It's true though mate - traditional offies would have to be a class player's favourite type of bowling to face, surely? Without a well-disguised doosra, then I can't see traditional offies consistently troubling decent sides unless there's a ****load in the deck for them.
That doesn't mean each of them aren't performing their craft well, it's probably got more to do with where their craft currently stands in big cricket.

Yeah bvut what social's post implied was that Swann was yet to face any top-class batsman whereas he's actually faced nearly all of the premier batsmen in world cricket, except for Pietersen

 

[Uppercut]

It's true though mate - traditional offies would have to be a class player's favourite type of bowling to face, surely? Without a well-disguised doosra, then I can't see traditional offies consistently troubling decent sides unless there's a ****load in the deck for them.
That doesn't mean each of them aren't performing their craft well, it's probably got more to do with where their craft currently stands in big cricket.

Swann will have difficulty troubling top-class RHBs but he's lethal against the lefties. You're looking at Gautam Gambhir three times in two tests, Shiv Chanderpaul three times in four, North and Katich three times each in five, JP Duminy and Ashwell Prince three in three. Those guys are properly good batsmen.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Pakistan aren't poor against spin. They're just "Pakistan" against spin.

 

[DaRick]

It's true though mate - traditional offies would have to be a class player's favourite type of bowling to face, surely? Without a well-disguised doosra, then I can't see traditional offies consistently troubling decent sides unless there's a ****load in the deck for them.

That isn't entirely true. I would say that chinamen have had a harder time of it in Test cricket. Paul Adams is probably the most noteworthy Test chinaman in recent times and even he was nothing special - beyond his action, anyway. Chinamen also have their stock delivery spinning into right-handers, without the accuracy of an offspinner.

For instance, I've been surprised at how much India has struggled against offspin at times when playing Australia. Aside from Krejza, Andrew Symonds troubled them a fair bit at times in 2007/08 just by firing it into the rough, especially in Sydney - and he's nowhere near the calibre of either Hauritz or Swann. Their performance against Murali is more variable - he's ripped through them at times when bowling at home, but has been ineffective in India.

 

[stephen]

That isn't entirely true. I would say that chinamen have had a harder time of it in Test cricket. Paul Adams is probably the most noteworthy Test chinaman in recent times and even he was nothing special - beyond his action, anyway. Chinamen also have their stock delivery spinning into right-handers, without the accuracy of an offspinner.

For instance, I've been surprised at how much India has struggled against offspin at times when playing Australia. Aside from Krejza, Andrew Symonds troubled them a fair bit at times in 2007/08 just by firing it into the rough, especially in Sydney - and he's nowhere near the calibre of either Hauritz or Swann. Their performance against Murali is more variable - he's ripped through them at times when bowling at home, but has been ineffective in India.

I have come to realise that Indian conditions are very unique. Their pitches tend to turn differently to pitches elsewhere in the world. While most people say that they're conducive to spin, I actually think they're conducive to quicker spin. Kumble being the prime example over the last ten years or so. Slower spin tends to be too easy to watch onto the bat in the country. Murali bowls more like a wrist spinner than an off spinner and so will struggle bowling at his pace in India. Warne struggled largely due to his pace, whereas far lesser offspinners have succeeded and they have generally been 5-10 kph faster than the wrist spinners.

 

[social]

Yeah bvut what social's post implied was that Swann was yet to face any top-class batsman whereas he's actually faced nearly all of the premier batsmen in world cricket, except for Pietersen

I implied no such thing

IMO, "traditional" offies are the easiest and least skilled bowlers to face and virtually no batsman will tell you any different

 

[GIMH]

You said something along the lines of 'wait til he faces an A-grader' which implies that he hasn't done that yet, to me. if I've misinterpreted you then fair enough.

 

[amla]

Harris aint no bowler

 

[Son Of Coco]

You said something along the lines of 'wait til he faces an A-grader' which implies that he hasn't done that yet, to me. if I've misinterpreted you then fair enough.

Yeah I think he was implying something different myself. He did say something like 'anyone from A-Grade up would be licking their lips at the prospect of facing them', which to me means they'd be the preferred option if they had a choice of the type of bowler to face.

It's true through all the grades. Although I'd put woeful medium pace before off-spin of a decent level.

 

[andyc]

Haha GIMH. Great delete reason.

 

[Furball]

That isn't entirely true. I would say that chinamen have had a harder time of it in Test cricket. Paul Adams is probably the most noteworthy Test chinaman in recent times and even he was nothing special - beyond his action, anyway. Chinamen also have their stock delivery spinning into right-handers, without the accuracy of an offspinner.

There's nothing remarkable about that, given how difficult leg spin is to master.

iirc there's only about 10 or so leggies who have made a significant impact on Test cricket in terms of volume of wickets, when you consider the proportion of left handers in the population then the fact that there's not yet been a great chinaman bowler isn't really a statistical anomaly.

I'd be interested to know who the most successful chinaman bowlers have been in the history of Tests. Wouldn't suprise me if Bevan and Katich were up there.

 

[Migara]

Who's 'they'? Pakistan's only player against decent spin is MoYo. Before that, I dunno, Salim Malik maybe. Generally are bunnies unless playing on a runway.

Pakistan's best players of spin are Shoaib Malik and Akmal brothers, and may be Butt. Others are ****ing awful against spin.

 

[Migara]

Don't look like Bunnies to me.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Since 01.01.1990, Here are how spinners done against Pakistan.

Looks as impressive as batting list IMO

 

[Migara]

Paul Adams is probably the most noteworthy Test chinaman in recent times and even he was nothing special - beyond his action, anyway. Chinamen also have their stock delivery spinning into right-handers, without the accuracy of an offspinner.

Brad Hogg was very impressive though. Had he played for a different country, would have been quite a good test bowler.

 

[aussie]

Brad Hogg was very impressive though. Had he played for a different country, would have been quite a good test bowler.

Have to disagree slightly since in the past i've heard a few people say (on this site poster Vic_orthodox for example) that Hogg's variations where a lot harder to pick (specifically the wrong'un) with the white ball, because the contrast between the colours of the seam and the ball aren't as distinctive as with the red ball, so batsmen found him a lot easier to pick in FC cricket.

Watching him bowl in tests especially after Warne retired i believe their was alot of truth to that.