Hammond vs Kallis

[Socerer 01]

Didn't Kyear make one already?

Or do you mean who should be no.8 in an ATG XI?

nah i meant @Prince EWS point of how transferrable or reliable skills from test cricket are in a hypothetical 11 vs 11 atg matchup

 

[Prince EWS]

nah i meant @Prince EWS point of how transferrable or reliable skills from test cricket are in a hypothetical 11 vs 11 atg matchup

Sorry I used up my thread quota on Kallis vs Tallis.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think there is a magic quality cutoff point that says Imran will do okay and Marshall/Warne will just collapse. Everyone performs a level below their career.

I am arguing Imran would average 10 less than career average in an ATG setting.

 

[kyear2]

I don't see Warne or Marshall regularly lasting more than five overs against an ATG XI, whereas for Imran he averaged 27 against the WI and scored well against Hadlee and Lillee, so I see him easily averaging in the mid-20s against an ATG XI, which in a low-scoring ATG scenario, is what you need from a no.8.



Yeah we agree. I think that that 27-average at no.8 is important rather than the tailend being skittled, especially in a chase.

As for bowling, any top-tier bowler will thrive in a ATG bowling lineup given the support.

How did you come to this conclusion? Quality counts so much more in this scenario.
So batting quality counts more than bowling quality?

 

[kyear2]

I don't see Warne or Marshall regularly lasting more than five overs against an ATG XI, whereas for Imran he averaged 27 against the WI and scored well against Hadlee and Lillee, so I see him easily averaging in the mid-20s against an ATG XI, which in a low-scoring ATG scenario, is what you need from a no.8.



Yeah we agree. I think that that 27-average at no.8 is important rather than the tailend being skittled, especially in a chase.

As for bowling, any top-tier bowler will thrive in a ATG bowling lineup given the support.

Did you read my second to last post?
He averaged 21 in the Caribbean and only scored runs vs Hadlee in high scoring draws. Like each team scored over 400.
Again, not dating that repeated vs Lillee, just an interesting observation.
Similar to, and again, from memory (it's almost 2am) 4 of his 6 hundreds were in similarly high scoring games.

 

[kyear2]

nah i meant @Prince EWS point of how transferrable or reliable skills from test cricket are in a hypothetical 11 vs 11 atg matchup

Could phrase it

specialist or all rounders

Is an all rounder a requirement at no 8 in an ATG team or go with the best attack

Secondarily and additionally we can also do a poll with regards to how we rate or rank secondary skills.

 

[subshakerz]

How did you come to this conclusion? Quality counts so much more in this scenario.
So batting quality counts more than bowling quality?

Let us say you are touring a place where you know the results are going to be low-scoring on either side regardless of the four main bowlers you select.

Wouldn't your priority be stacking your batting lineup with sufficient depth?

 

[Bolo.]

I am arguing Imran would average 10 less than career average in an ATG setting.

Ya, not arguing with that. Sounds about right, although we are making up exact numbers. I reckon Marshall would average about 12, proportionally lower. But even this would be very useful. Can stick around for long enough while Bradman/Sobers/Gilly etc. attack the tired bowlers for a bunch of extra runs.

 

[Prince EWS]

Let us say you are touring a place where you know the results are going to be low-scoring on either side regardless of the four bowlers you select.

If this was literally true I wouldn't select any bowlers at all, but obviously it isn't. Bowling selections will partly determine how many runs the opposition scores.

 

[subshakerz]

Did you read my second to last post?
He averaged 21 in the Caribbean and only scored runs vs Hadlee in high scoring draws. Like each team scored over 400.
Again, not dating that repeated vs Lillee, just an interesting observation.
Similar to, and again, from memory (it's almost 2am) 4 of his 6 hundreds were in similarly high scoring games.

My point is that Imran would end up averaging mid-20s in the ATG XI in a real batting scenario, consistent with all bats averaging at least 10 points below their regular averages.

Against WI who ranged from 2 to 4 worldclass pacers in what he faced, he averaged 21, 29, 28, 22 and 50 in the series played.

Against Lillee led Australia, he averaged 17, 32, 27 and 56.

Against Hadlee led NZ, he averaged 35 and 140.

So why am I wrong?

 

[subshakerz]

If this was literally true I wouldn't select any bowlers at all, but obviously it isn't. Bowling selections will partly determine how many runs the opposition scores.

Yes when I say regardless of the four bowlers, I am saying in your regular bowling pool, not some part-timers bowling.

In a real game, we almost always look at the all-round package and how it adds to the balance of the team.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah I'd agree with you there but I don't actually agree with the assertion that games would be lower scoring at a higher level. Tests tend to be higher scoring than domestic FC cricket (although I think part of that is just the extra day's play and better batting wickets).

That is your argument sure, and I agree with you, mostly. The problem is kyear thinks ATG games will be lower scoring. If that's the case, even if the statistical gap between Imran and Marshall reduces, there's arguably just as much value added by Imran's batting in ATG scenario as in real test matches.

Imran averages 38 and Marshall 19 in real tests, in which, let's assume 300 is an average score. If we assume in ATG games that 200 is an average score, Imran averages 27 and Marshall 15 or something, those 12 extra runs are now extremely valuable because of the assumption that the games are lower scoring and even the ATG batsmen aren't delivering their usual numbers.

I just don't think "ATG XI games will be low scoring" and "ATG XI batting depth doesn't matter" are positions that you can hold together. There's a strong argument that the marginal loss in bowling quality in games that are expected to be low scoring is not as important.

 

[Prince EWS]

That is your argument sure, and I agree with you, mostly. The problem is kyear thinks ATG games will be lower scoring. If that's the case, even if the statistical gap between Imran and Marshall reduces, there's arguably just as much value added by Imran's batting in ATG scenario as in real test matches.

Imran averages 38 and Marshall 19 in real tests, in which, let's assume 300 is an average score. If we assume in ATG games that 200 is an average score, Imran averages 27 and Marshall 15 or something, those 12 extra runs are now extremely valuable because of the assumption that the games are lower scoring and even the ATG batsmen aren't delivering their usual numbers.

I just don't think "ATG XI games will be low scoring" and "ATG XI batting depth doesn't matter" are positions that you can hold together. There's a strong argument that the marginal loss in bowling quality in games that are expected to be low scoring is not as important.

Maybe if he thinks they're going to be really low scoring then neither Marshall nor Imran would really be able to handle it at all and the difference between their batting would be totally neutralised. I reckon Taijul Islam would score heaps more runs than Steve Harmison in grade cricket but it's basically a wash in Tests after you try to scale that all up.

I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point though. I don't agree with his low scoring hypothesis so I haven't factored it in much in my own thinking at all.

 

[Prince EWS]

While discussing ATG World XIs today, I ended up mentioning the following players:

Chris Woakes
Mark Wood
Carl Hooper
Taijul Islam
Steve Harmison

I love CW.

 

[Coronis]

Again I’m not convinced games would necessarily be lower scoring than tests. In any case, I think its generally understood that bowlers individually are more valuable than batsmen? (excepting Don) e.g would you rather have David Warner or Zaheer Khan (idk about these examples tbh, theres probably better relative to one another) having to join your squad as the 11th player?

So if the bowlers are inherently more valuable, maximising the bowling quality should be priority. I’m sharing the opinion with PEWS that secondary skills in particular diminish in value as the competition level rises - shockingly there are far more allrounders comparitively at lower levels than at test level.

Obviously in this particular argument with regard to Imran vs anyone else it comes down to how much perceived value his extra runs have over his perceived shortcomings as a bowler.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And not starting an Imran thing, and going by memory and between emails right now, but if I do recall correctly at least 4 of Imran's 6 hundreds came in innings where there was at least one or two other hundreds scored and was just as you phrased it "down hill skiing at the end of an innings" or even piling on.
Again, Imran was a considerably better batsman than most, not even questioning that.

This is not entirely inaccurate but a pretty unfair summation on the whole. The 4 hundreds you refer to are:

1. This one vs an ATG standard attack of Marshall/Croft/Garner/Clarke where he took Pakistan from 95/5 to 369. Absolutely no way Warne or Marshall would even be able to fluke a hundred like this in an ATG XI game (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-vs-west-indies-1st-test-63272/full-scorecard)

2. vs India where Pakistan were 273/7 and ended up getting 487 because of Imran's hundred (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...dia-vs-pakistan-1st-test-63452/full-scorecard)

3. again vs India where Pakistan were 367/5. Probably downhill skiing but they were responding to 370 from India, so I'd still argue this as a very valuable innings (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...kistan-vs-india-3rd-test-63331/full-scorecard)

4. vs England. This is 100% inarguably downhill skiing (https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...and-vs-pakistan-5th-test-63465/full-scorecard)

Maybe only 1 or maybe 2 of the 6 hundreds are of low worth imo.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Obviously in this particular argument with regard to Imran vs anyone else it comes down to how much perceived value his extra runs have over his perceived shortcomings as a bowler.

Tbf, the real reason this discussion won't have any resolution is because I rate Imran much higher purely as a bowler than other people do. It's built on a premise that we cant agree on anyway.

 

[Prince EWS]

In a world without Test cricket (or a regularly-played level equivalent to it), I genuinely believe Ronnie Irani is better than Ricky Ponting.

We probably need to think this sort of thing through before we formulate ATG World XIs.

While discussing ATG World XIs today, I ended up mentioning the following players:

Chris Woakes
Mark Wood
Carl Hooper
Taijul Islam
Steve Harmison

I love CW.

And Ronnie Irani.

 

[Prince EWS]

Anyway, Kallis was better than Hammond.

(but I'd pick Hammond in my ATG World XI and not Kallis)

 

[Socerer 01]

my own rando contribution to this discussion is that SPD Smith will be mercilessly targeted by bouncers in an ATG team and he will be ruthlessly exposed due to it