Hammond vs Kallis

[subshakerz]

Tendulkar and Hooper is kind of a good example though.

At domestic FC level Hooper was a genuine allrounder and used as a frontline bowler, but Tendulkar was just a good part-timer. At one level higher up they had extremely similar returns and utility.

Chris Woakes is a massively better domestic batsman than Mark Wood but in Test cricket the difference is rarely particularly noticable.

Yeah so let's stick to their performance levels in test cricket.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah so let's stick to their performance levels in test cricket.

You might be missing my point a bit. The jump from domestic cricket to Test cricket is the best data we've got on what the jump from Test cricket to fantasy ATG cricket might be. Secondary skills tend to drop off the higher the quality gets.

 

[subshakerz]

You might be missing my point a bit. The jump from domestic cricket to Test cricket is the best data we've got on what the jump from Test cricket to fantasy ATG cricket might be. Secondary skills tend to drop off the higher the quality gets.

Oh I get that. Which is why Marshall/Warne are not going to be averaging 18 or whatever with the bat in an ATG game, and Imran is likely to average in the 20s. But that 20 odd average at no.8 is still critical in ensuring you have a strong enough tail in a low scoring game. Bradman is going to average in the 60 to 70s and the other bats are going to struggle to average 40 in a series.

The way I see, at this level of skill, your output gets taken down at least one level of base standard, except for the bowlers as they have the advantage of supreme bowling support.

 

[kyear2]

Do you see the concern we would have for having a regular tail in an ATG XI game that we already agree are going to be low-scoring affairs and every run counts?

But what counts more is having the best bowler though.
And even though I'm steering away from using actual players, you believe Imran is top 4 regardless, so for you and many others here, he plays and it's a moot point.

If you didn't and still wanted to make the argument, then why would have disagreements. I would prefer to go with my best attack, I also believe. Marshall and Warne were good enough with the bat not to just fall apart and can stick around if needed and score a few handy runs. You don't have to be an all rounder to score runs. To most of you-all Hammond isn't but still got Bradman a few times.
Not everyone will see things the way you do, and that's fine.
I would go with my line up, and again. I will say, if the team's loosing and being bundled out consistently, I think your problem is with the top order, not with how the bowlers are batting

 

[subshakerz]

But what counts more is having the best bowler though.
And even though I'm steering away from using actual players, you believe Imran is top 4 regardless, so for you and many others here, he plays and it's a moot point.

If you didn't and still wanted to make the argument, then why would have disagreements. I would prefer to go with my best attack, I also believe. Marshall and Warne were good enough with the bat not to just fall apart and can stick around if needed and score a few handy runs. You don't have to be an all rounder to score runs. To most of you-all Hammond isn't but still got Bradman a few times.
Not everyone will see things the way you do, and that's fine.
I would go with my line up, and again. I will say, if the team's loosing and being bundled out consistently, I think your problem is with the top order, not with how the bowlers are batting

If Steyn or Ambrose had Imran's batting skills and Imran didn't, then they would be a shoe-in even though I think they are marginally worse bowlers.

The problem with the 'best bowler' argument is that, given the setup with four top tier bowlers operating in tandom, they are all likely to end up with stellar figures. I don't envision much difference between McGrath/Marshall/Imran/Warne or Hadlee/Lillee/Steyn/Murali or whatever top ten combo you use as long as the bowlers are varied. Each of these guys is the top dog in their lineup and suddenly they don't have to bare that burden and just feed off the pressure of each other. It makes wicket-taking almost inevitable.

The entire ATG setup is against the batsmen, which makes the priority on scraping every run you can from the batting order.

 

[kyear2]

You might be missing my point a bit. The jump from domestic cricket to Test cricket is the best data we've got on what the jump from Test cricket to fantasy ATG cricket might be. Secondary skills tend to drop off the higher the quality gets.

Why is this so hard to understand.

Let's look at said Imran

The closest attack Imran ever came to a fantasy ATXI attack was vs the WI.

He average over all was 10 below his test average and away from home in the Caribbean it was almost halved down to 21.

And that wasn't an ATG attack, it was just close to one.

I then looked at his performances vs NZ, and especially Hadlee. On the surface it look great, but when you look deeper, every time he scored a 50 against them it was a high scoring drawn match. Like very high scoring.
I'm not saying that was true against every team, but those are the first two I looked at.

So yes, basically what PEWS said, the higher up the quality, the more finished returns for secondary skills may seem to be supported.

 

[Socerer 01]

You might be missing my point a bit. The jump from domestic cricket to Test cricket is the best data we've got on what the jump from Test cricket to fantasy ATG cricket might be. Secondary skills tend to drop off the higher the quality gets.

this is a fantastic point and argument that is being unfairly missed or dismissed by plenty so far even if its slightly speculative

 

[Prince EWS]

this is a fantastic point and argument that is being unfairly missed or dismissed by plenty so far even if its slightly speculative

I am one of the biggest Imran fans on the forum too. He's captain of my ATG World XI. I just think the argument is more interesting than the quasi-partisan justifications.

 

[kyear2]

If Steyn or Ambrose had Imran's batting skills and Imran didn't, then they would be a shoe-in even though I think they are marginally worse bowlers.

The problem with the 'best bowler' argument is that, given the setup with four top tier bowlers operating in tandom, they are all likely to end up with stellar figures. I don't envision much difference between McGrath/Marshall/Imran/Warne or Hadlee/Lillee/Steyn/Murali or whatever top ten combo you use as long as the bowlers are varied. Each of these guys is the top dog in their lineup and suddenly they don't have to bare that burden and just feed off the pressure of each other. It makes wicket-taking almost inevitable.

The entire ATG setup is against the batsmen, which makes the priority on scraping every run you can from the batting order.

Which is where we disagree, because I believe the priority is bowling out the opposition for as cheaply as possible.

I can see you point, I just disagree. And this isn't an Imran thing, I'm still likely going with McGrath over Hadlee. Now if **** goes sideways and a change is necessary, then yeah, Paddles replaces Pidgeon. But let's take it a step further, suppose McGrath has been just as good as Maco and Steyn or even the best? Do you replace your best bowler because the batsmen are failing?

 

[Bolo.]

That is quite a reach. Australia won that match without an all rounder and the tail fighting back. And in the couple games when Australia's tail wagged, especially the 2nd instance, it was the bowling that totally lost direction and discipline and went bouncer crazy.

But to think that Imran would have won two matches on his own with the bat is a bit crazy and making the assumption he would fire every match. Not even Bradman did that

I'm not saying games would not have been won by better bowling- I'm pointing out that that they were being won by the tail wagging. And I'm pointing out the value of the tail wagging even in the absence of an actual AR- my estimation of the added value of extra batting applies to much worse bats than ARs.

Imran doesn't need to fire in all 4, just the two loses. I'm not saying he would necessarily have fired with the bat in the 2 loses. I'm saying there is a a decent chance he adds an extra 50 or so runs in each of the two to swing the game. In a game with two completed innings, I'd expect him to add 50 partnership runs in relation to a number 11 more often than not. He averages 30 runs per innings, a figure that includes not outs in draws/declarations and does not include increase in partnership runs. Definitely a 'reasonable chance' for both.

 

[kyear2]

If Steyn or Ambrose had Imran's batting skills and Imran didn't, then they would be a shoe-in even though I think they are marginally worse bowlers.

The problem with the 'best bowler' argument is that, given the setup with four top tier bowlers operating in tandom, they are all likely to end up with stellar figures. I don't envision much difference between McGrath/Marshall/Imran/Warne or Hadlee/Lillee/Steyn/Murali or whatever top ten combo you use as long as the bowlers are varied. Each of these guys is the top dog in their lineup and suddenly they don't have to bare that burden and just feed off the pressure of each other. It makes wicket-taking almost inevitable.

The entire ATG setup is against the batsmen, which makes the priority on scraping every run you can from the batting order.

And that's your argument. As I said, if I thought Imran was the equal to let's say, Steyn, then it's a no-brainer. If you're equal the tie breaker takes effect.
Similarly if I believed Ponting or Smith were the equal to Tendulkar, then they too easily replace him due to the additional utility they being.
I personally don't think they are equal. With regards to Hadlee, I think he's much closer to McGrath than Imran to Steyn (IMHO), but I feel like I'm sure what McGrath can do in all and every condition and I just trust him more. But that's a really right call and can vary day to day.

 

[subshakerz]

And that's your argument. As I said, if I thought Imran was the equal to let's say, Steyn, then it's a no-brainer. If you're equal the tie breaker takes effect.
Similarly if I believed Ponting or Smith were the equal to Tendulkar, then they too easily replace him due to the additional utility they being.
I personally don't think they are equal. With regards to Hadlee, I think he's much closer to McGrath than Imran to Steyn (IMHO), but I feel like I'm sure what McGrath can do in all and every condition and I just trust him more. But that's a really right call and can vary day to day.

I just think this is a reductive on-paper technique to have tie-breakers whereas in a real match situation, any captain would leap at the chance to have that extra batting strength knowing the advantage in a real match situation.

 

[Socerer 01]

I am one of the biggest Imran fans on the forum too. He's captain of my ATG World XI. I just think the argument is more interesting than the quasi-partisan justifications.

it wont surprise me if that ends up being the case and a sport of only atgs differs significantly from standard test cricket or even from what is expected. some of the atgs played when fielding was not a big deal for eg and when most bowling attacks had at least one bowler well below standard that could be targeted which isn’t possible in an atg vs atg match

 

[Socerer 01]

this deserves a new thread to discuss

@subshakerz make it happen

 

[Prince EWS]

Oh I get that. Which is why Marshall/Warne are not going to be averaging 18 or whatever with the bat in an ATG game, and Imran is likely to average in the 20s. But that 20 odd average at no.8 is still critical in ensuring you have a strong enough tail in a low scoring game. Bradman is going to average in the 60 to 70s and the other bats are going to struggle to average 40 in a series.

I think there's much more chance they are than Imran averaging 38. Or even if they average 15 instead, the gap is definitely going to get much smaller IMO. If you look at someone like Mark Wood who just makes 'handy runs', his average didn't drop from high teens once he got to Test cricket; his nuisance value scales up through the grades. The further up in standard you get I think the more players who have absolutely gun secondary skills like Woakes in domestic cricket or Imran in Tests do start to come back to the pack.

I'm still picking Imran, but I think he was a much better Test cricketer than Marshall in a way that I don't think would be true in an ATG World XI setting, for much the same reasons as Woakes being a better domestic cricketer than Steyn but a worse Test cricketer.

 

[subshakerz]

Why is this so hard to understand.

Let's look at said Imran

The closest attack Imran ever came to a fantasy ATXI attack was vs the WI.

He average over all was 10 below his test average and away from home in the Caribbean it was almost halved down to 21.

And that wasn't an ATG attack, it was just close to one.

I then looked at his performances vs NZ, and especially Hadlee. On the surface it look great, but when you look deeper, every time he scored a 50 against them it was a high scoring drawn match. Like very high scoring.
I'm not saying that was true against every team, but those are the first two I looked at.

So yes, basically what PEWS said, the higher up the quality, the more finished returns for secondary skills may seem to be supported.

Imran averaging 27 overall with the bat against the greatest attack in history for a bowling-allrounder is actually pretty good. If he can replicate that at no.8 in a low-scoring game scenario, that is gold. Imran also scored well against Hadlee and Lillee so he is perfectly capable of hanging around against ATG bowlers, which is what is needed.

All the batsmen in an ATG XI are going to be averaging something like 10 runs less in a series given the attacks they face.

 

[Prince EWS]

Imran averaging 27 overall with the bat against the greatest attack in history for a bowling-allrounder is actually pretty good. If he can replicate that at no.8 in a low-scoring game scenario, that is gold.

Woakes averages 27 in Tests. I think Imran would probably be Woakes-in-Tests standard as a batsman a level up.

That's seriously useful, but only if he doesn't also become Woakes-in-Tests standard as a bowler. I don't think he would be which is why I'm still picking him, but it is a useful case study.

And a bit of an aside but I never thought I'd end up talking about Woakes so much in the context of ATG World XIs. @Red_Ink_Squid hi!

 

[subshakerz]

I think there's much more chance they are than Imran averaging 38. Or even if they average 15 instead, the gap is definitely going to get much smaller IMO. If you look at someone like Mark Wood who just makes 'handy runs', his average didn't drop from high teens once he got to Test cricket; his nuisance value scales up through the grades. The further up in standard you get I think the more players who have absolutely gun secondary skills like Woakes in domestic cricket or Imran in Tests do start to come back to the pack.

I'm still picking Imran, but I think he was a much better Test cricketer than Marshall in a way that I don't think would be true in an ATG World XI setting, for much the same reasons as Woakes being a better domestic cricketer than Steyn but a worse Test cricketer.

I don't see Warne or Marshall regularly lasting more than five overs against an ATG XI, whereas for Imran he averaged 27 against the WI and scored well against Hadlee and Lillee, so I see him easily averaging in the mid-20s against an ATG XI, which in a low-scoring ATG scenario, is what you need from a no.8.

Woakes averages 27 in Tests. I think Imran would probably be Woakes-in-Tests standard as a batsman a level up.

That's seriously useful, but only if he doesn't also become Woakes-in-Tests standard as a bowler. I don't think he would be which is why I'm still picking him, but it is a useful case study.

And a bit of an aside but I never thought I'd end up talking about Woakes so much in the context of ATG World XIs. @Red_Ink_Squid hi!

Yeah we agree. I think that that 27-average at no.8 is important rather than the tailend being skittled, especially in a chase.

As for bowling, any top-tier bowler will thrive in a ATG bowling lineup given the support.

 

[subshakerz]

this deserves a new thread to discuss

@subshakerz make it happen

Didn't Kyear make one already?

Or do you mean who should be no.8 in an ATG XI?

 

[Bolo.]

I don't see Warne or Marshall regularly lasting more than five overs against an ATG XI, whereas for Imran he averaged 27 against the WI and scored well against Hadlee and Lillee, so I see him easily averaging in the mid-20s against an ATG XI, which in a low-scoring ATG scenario, is what you need from a no.8.



Yeah we agree. I think that that 27-average at no.8 is important rather than the tailend being skittled, especially in a chase.

As for bowling, any top-tier bowler will thrive in a ATG bowling lineup given the support.

I don't think there is a magic quality cutoff point that says Imran will do okay and Marshall/Warne will just collapse. Everyone performs a level below their career.