Group A - India, England, Australia, West Indies

[superkingdave]

Mahmood's purely domestic OD career stats are 93 wickets@22.46, ER of 4.78

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the makeup of England's batting lineup. Strauss is not a nurdler, Trescothick isn't and they both score quickly if they hang around, then you've got Flintoff and KP. It is not the case that they regularly bat out the overs but lose anyway, England get bowled out repeatedly (batting first particularly, I seem to recall they have a particularly awful stat with respect to getting bowled out in Asia) and that gives them virtually no chance of winning. England also have too many weak batting links, like other teams have a keeper who averages 30+, England have Read who's a walking wicket. Then there's Yardy who's done nicely as a bowler but has done nothing to suggest he's any better than a Giles with the bat.

Australia, India and Sri Lanka are the only teams with wicketkeepers averaging 30+. I think in ODI cricket a lot of teams would settle for someone averaging in the mid20s if he's 'keeping wicket well and batting at 7 or lower.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yes I would not disagree with anything you said there. There are at least three issues with our batting that require attention.

Firstly, a brief look at the makeup of some more successful teams, like Australia or India, will reveal that they have three or four power players (i.e. Gilchrist, Ponting, Symonds or Sehwag, Tendulkar and Dhoni) and a couple of nurdlers. England can boast just two such players (Pietersen & Flintoff), and if they fail we are reliant on less destructive players such as Bell or Collingwood who cannot hope to establish a total in excess of 300, which is badly needed to be competitive if we insist on selecting these profligate fast bowlers.

Secondly, Fletcher and co often select batsmen for ODI sides based on championship form alone, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the demands of the two games vary considerably. A prime example of this is Yardy, who has looked totally out of his depth as a batsman in his ODI career so far, hardly surprising when one considers that he has never made a century and averages barely 20 in a 100 match OD career with Sussex. One can only imagine he was picked as a reward for runs scored in the championship - I highly doubt bowling considerations secured his selection as he hardly bowls for Sussex in either form of the game.

Thirdly, the team has suffered from poor analysis of conditions. England never seem to know what the right total to aim for is in any given match they bat first in.

Harsh on Tres. He can be destructive too when his head's right.

& Yardy bowled rather decently in the 20/20 comp this year; I'm sure that won't have gone unnoticed by the selectors given its profile. Having seen him at the top level now he does seem a tad short of the requisite class as a batter.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Harsh on Tres. He can be destructive too when his head's right.

It's fascinating how his ODI S/R is higher than that of Brian Lara, Ricky Ponting and Matthew Hayden, and only just short of Sachin Tendulkar's. He also hit McGrath for 4 fours in an over at the last CT IIRC.

 

[Goughy]

All the other players you are comparing are based on purely domestic records, so why should you not compare that to Saj's purely domestic record?

Not all. The figures are for all List A games during the English season and as you can see Jon Lewis is on the list and he had 4 ODIs against Pakistan.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Not all. The figures are for all List A games during the English season and as you can see Jon Lewis is on the list and he had 4 ODIs against Pakistan.

But we've established that Lewis is a better bowler than Mahmood.

 

[wpdavid]

tbf Mahmood's domestic List A record for this year (which is what should be considered when comparing these players) is 9 wickets@13.22 with an ER of 3.79 from 5 games

The other thing in Mahmood's favour is his rate of improvement. He's so much better than he was against SL four months ago and if he keeps this sort of progress up then he's going to be very handy indeed. I don't buy the argument that he merely picked up a couple of cheap wickets on the slog today - those final 3 overs could easily have gone for 25-30, but he kept it very tight and just about kept us in the game. OK, he wasn't great earlier, but he's heading in the right direction. And as a bonus, he's now twice helped see us home in tight run chases. Goughy's earlier comments about Kirtley & Tremlett are well made, and I do think Tremlett in particular has been unlucky not to be recalled after his injury, but personally I'd like to see them stick with Mahmood.

As Scaly said, the batting's still going to stop us winning many games though. At least Strauss & Bell have given us a couple of decent starts, even if one of them really should have gone on with it and made a big one. But that's the problem with the batting - how often do we see someone press on and approach or pass 3 figures? Still, at least Strauss is now regularly making 40+ at the top of these innings, so there's progress being made. Presumably any ideas of Fred or KP batting in the top 3 have been well & truly shelved. Trouble is that none of Fred, KP or Colly are great at number 4, and I don't really know the solution to that. tbh I can't see how KP would have been affected by coming in 2 deliveries sooner at number 4 today, but the fact is that he does so much better at number 5. A wicket keeper who could bat in the top 4 would help!

 

[Turbinator]

We have played Australia 2 times so far in the CT, and both times we have won, so it's not really that bad. We do have a chance!

 

[wpdavid]

But we've established that Lewis is a better bowler than Mahmood.

I doubt is anyone on CW's arguing that Lewis shouldn't play. I thought Fred was smart to bowl him out well before the death today, btw. If he's used like that, then he's fine. he must have a better record in the first 15 overs than anyone else we've used recently.

 

[GIMH]

Well due to a lack of Sky Sports and the fact that I never visited my mother today because I watching the whites means I have only seen one of our CT games, against Aus.

However, based on what I've read, and the brief highlights I've seen etc, here are my thoughts, which no doubt none of you care about

KP - about time. Even though it was a dead rubber for us, it was good to see KP score big, and I reckon he'll score big in the VB series

Flintoff - I'm not sure whther I wanted him to bowl today, sure it's good he's getting fit, but in a game that held little but pride, was it worth taking risks? Doesn't matter in the end I guess, but still. As for his batting, good to see him getting some runs even if it was only 25. Sounds like it was a stupid dismissal, which I'm glad about in many ways tbh, as from what I've heard he was in good nick, and the fact that he got himself out means that if he can avoid stupid shots he can go down under in some good batting form. Possibly.

Read - Interesting, when GJ was the undisputed number one, people were calling for Read as the ODI keeper at least. He did well at tests, but has been exposed in this tournament. For all the keepers that have been suggested, I reckon there's no chance of anyone but Geraint taking his place. Specially as it's them two in the Ashes squad. Geraint will start at Brisbane, you heard it here first.

Mahmood - I reckon he's worth persevering with in ODIs, if eh can reduce his economy he could be a real handful. His batting in some recent ODIs (today and the 5th against Pakistan spring to mind) are probably giving Monty a lot of cheer, as Saj could well fill the #8 role efficiently in both forms of the game. It's a blow to Jimmy Anderson though, and I reckon our attack in the Ashes will be Flintoff-Mahmood-Hoggard-Harmison-Panesar

General - our ODi side is a shambles, but our openers have done a decent job in the last two games, and I'm very pleased with Bell, who things are going very well for since being left out the Sri Lanka Test series. I have no doubt, my position as a blinded English optimist not withstanding, that we will fail to reach the VB series final, but looking at ODIs, things are looking better than they were after the Sri Lanka series. Saying that, what SKD said is right, cracks can be papered over but they will not go away, and there is a lot of work to do if we are to avoid embarassment at the World Cup. A semi-final place is beyond us, but hopefully we can give a good account of ourselves, and set about working on getting our ODI team up to the same standard of our Test side. It will take an absolutely massive amount of work though!

 

[social]

Geez, u praise a team and they lose to Eng

All jokes aside, Eng obviously batted well but if the opening bowlers were anything to go by, they had a lot of assistance from the opposition and KP was obviously super.

One of Eng's big problems is fielding - they are well below the standard of some other teams here

Unfortunately, they wont win consistently at ODIs until they improve the fielding, batsmen start consistently turning starts into scores and they find wicket-takers (Yardy and co just play batsmen in) who also bowl economically

I've got no idea why Cook and Joyce arent and Flintoff should open or bat 6 or 7

 

[aussie]

a bit late but what the heck, KP KP KP, big man innings today, who dare to doubt his superb talent. Its victories like this that keep convincing me that once England are at full-strenght they can have a strong ODI side that will challenge at the WC.

With Trescothick back at the top (hopefully at his best), Strauss has shown in the last few months that he can score freely at the top, Bell makes a perfect #3, a middle order of KP, Freddie, Collingwood & Dalrymple looks very good along with Anderson, Mahmood, Harmison (once bowling well) makes for an overall strong outfit. Only problem is the Keeper, hopefully Reado can start smoking it or has i mentioned in another thread call up Nic Pothas..

 

[aussie]

Strauss
Bell
Trescothick
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Pothas/Read/Jones/Prior +
Dalrymple
Giles
Lewis
Anderson

IMO.

similar to what i just said but why have Trescothick batting @ 3?, Bell would be quite ok in the position and i won't consider Prior as a keeper option at all not up to at international level, James Foster would be a better option.

 

[social]

Assuming people are fit (excluding Jones because I've got doubts that he'll ever be the same)

Tresco - converts more than Strauss and u cant afford to have both in team because of their fielding
Bell - beats Strauss because of fielding
Cook - just what exactly has he done wrong?
Colly - must bowl more and start to score runs, fielding is a massive bonus in ordinary lot
KP - must work on fielding and bowl more in Gayle/Symonds mould
Flintoff
Dalrymple - looks ok
wk - they all look ordinary so just pick one
Mahmood
Lewis
Monty - best spinner by miles and cant be much worse than Yardy with the bat or in the field

This side will never get picked but cant do any worse

 

[Tomm NCCC]

I can see great improvement from Saj in his bowling. Im gonna get caned for this, I know, but he'll be Englands leading wicket-taker in the VB Series, £10 on it.

Anyone willing to take up the bet?

 

[Laurrz]

well its gonna be tough for them according to this article

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,20662660-23212,00.html

why on earth would the curators make a fast and bouncy GREEN wicket?!?!?

with due respect to Pathan, Patel, Agarkar/Sreesanth..... they don't really compare to the likes of McGrath and Lee

 

[silentstriker]

well its gonna be tough for them according to this article

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,20662660-23212,00.html

why on earth would the curators make a fast and bouncy GREEN wicket?!?!?

Maybe to force the morons in the Indian batting lineup to learn how to bat properly?

My only wish is that every wicket in India becomes green and boucy with lateral movement. Then we can find out which batsman deserve to be called "Test Calibre". Goodbye Sehwag, Dhoni, Yuvraj.

And maybe those wickets can encourage some pace bowlers, and we can actually have a decent bowling attack for a change.

Wouldn't that be something?

 

[Gajanayake]

Personally I can't see anything but a comprehensive Aussie win today.....

Anyway, here's the squad India should roll out imo...

Sehwag
Tendulkar
Mongia
Kaif
Dravid
Dhoni
Pathan
Powar
Harbhajan
Sreesanth
Munaf (I hope he's fully fit - if not, I wouldn't risk him missing the SA tour just for a oDI)

Powar must play imo....Spin is India's strength and the Aussies are less likely to be comfortable agianst spin than our seamers.

Personally, I think Sehwag should be dropped after today's game......he' performs once in a bluemoon yet retains his place.....Ditto Raina, can't honestly believe he's being preferred to Mongia and Kaif

I agree with Shastri that Gambhir deserves to be considered again and possibly Uthappa/Laxman....I can't see Laxman performing worse than Sehwag and at least with Laxman, you know he won't get stage fright when facing the Aussies.

RP singh should be dropped but India don't have a great deal of options in the seam dept. Not many Indian seamers have an economy rate below 5....actually two who do apart from Munaf are Zaheer and Nehra.....now that should raise some questions ?
I don't think Zaheer is a good test bowler but at ODI level, surely he's one of India's better seam options ?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The other thing in Mahmood's favour is his rate of improvement. He's so much better than he was against SL four months ago and if he keeps this sort of progress up then he's going to be very handy indeed. I don't buy the argument that he merely picked up a couple of cheap wickets on the slog today - those final 3 overs could easily have gone for 25-30, but he kept it very tight and just about kept us in the game. OK, he wasn't great earlier, but he's heading in the right direction. And as a bonus, he's now twice helped see us home in tight run chases. Goughy's earlier comments about Kirtley & Tremlett are well made, and I do think Tremlett in particular has been unlucky not to be recalled after his injury, but personally I'd like to see them stick with Mahmood.

Agreed about Mahmood. He's a much better bowler than he was just a few months ago and has plenty of key assets and should continue to improve. He bowled really well against Australia with the new ball, though he certainly needs to be more accurate when there's not movement around. There's no guarantee he'll turn into a good bowler, but he certainly could and I'd rather have him in the side than someone like Plunkett.

 

[howardj]

Good win from England last night.

With ODI's they must have Pietersen and Collingwood in there after the opening batsmen.