Greatest keeper batsman - Gilchrist or Sangakkara?

[Pratters]

But why? Knott was a far better keeper than Stewart and they both bat to a certain level as keepers. Knott is actually brilliant if we go by the number 7 logic you put. Even if we just go by your logics, Knott would win million out of million times v Stewart for England surely?

Await response to this bro.

 

[aussie]

More in keeping in the original discussion, I think if you believe that Sangakkara wasn't really a true wicket-batsman because he didn't do that role for the majority of his career, then picking Gilchrist makes sense. But otherwise I think picking Sangakkara is a no-brainer. Problem is you have to decide whether his early career or his ODI/T20I record tells you more about his batting while keeping. I think it's the latter.

Yep basically my point all. You see Pratters, ***** & co this is not a popularity contests to see who can get the most people on CW to agree with what they say, I state my point who agree fine, disagree move on. Respect to everyone otherwise...

 

[Pratters]

Speculation based on a whole ODI + T20I career and pre-2008 batting that was decent. And it is universally acknowledged that Sanga kept improving as a batsman throughout his career.

2003-2005 he had a vast difference in batting stats keeping and without keeping. Keeping in tests is a whole different ball game compared to ODIs. You cannot speculate like this.

 

[viriya]

2003-2005 he had a vast difference in batting stats keeping and without keeping. Keeping in tests is a whole different ball game compared to ODIs. You cannot speculate like this.

But I just did though

I'd be more interested in a Gilly vs Flower discussion though. I think Flower is underrated because he played for a fringe team.

 

[aussie]

But he never did that, so we don't know. Would you pick Barry Richards in a South African All Time Test XI? No.

I'm almost certain majority of people who would pick a South Africa all-time test XI would choose Richards. Never seen a SA ATXI without his name of the list & like its the case with my points with Stewart & Sanga - many are willing to take the risk belief that Barry would have been a great test opener - just like they believe the banned South Africa team would have been the best test team in the world in the early 1970s.

 

[cnerd123]

Yep basically my point all. You Pratters, ***** & co this is not a popularity contests to see who can get the most people on CW to agree with what they say, I state my point who agree fine, disagree move on. Respect to everyone otherwise...

You're the one who's been rude lol. Id go through this thread and highlight all your lack of respect if I could be ****ed.

Nice cop out tho. Post strange theories, get aggressive when challenged, fail to justify weird theories, then blame the other posters for a lack of respect lol. Don't post if you dont want to be called out on on your posts then. If having to actually justify your claims isn't something you want to do then go write a blog or smth. Or just ignore everyone who challenges your posts and go along on your merry way.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I know this is an unpopular opinion but I think Gilchrist is overrated as a Test batsman. This has been gone over multiple times before but even though he has a decent number of backs-to-the-wall innings, he benefited enormously from coming into bat after the GOAT Aus batting line-up of the 2000s had set it up for him to downhill ski. His FC record where he averages <45 supports my point.

All these points makes me think Flower > Gilchrist is a no-brainer.

If anything you've got that backwards. A quality bat has a much better opportunity to make a name for themselves and play memorable innings when coming in tough situations rather than at 5/450 like Gilly often did, where you have to pretty much have a go and throw your wicket away in the pursuit of pre-declaration runs.

And the <45 first-class average is a remarkable stupid point. Many, if not most, quality international players have similar fc stats. He played a vast majority of those games early in his career when he was younger and not as good as when he was playing Test cricket.

Duh.

Actually I think we are missing two other options - AB and Andy Flower.

AB averages 58 (higher than his overall) when keeping. I think I would pick him over Gilchrist in an ATG team.

Andy Flower kept in most of his Tests and imo was a better Test batsman than Gilchrist.

imo: Sanga > AB > Andy Flower > Gilchrist

This is an unfair comparison though since neither Sanga or AB kept all their career. So you could say they are disqualified. So Andy Flower would be my pick over Gilchrist.

ugh.

neither AB or Andy Flower are passable long-term keepers. Let alone for ATG XI.

Good batsmen though.

 

[aussie]

Aussie getting more personal with his posts as to avoid having to face up to his fallacies, inconsistencies and weird theories (England beat Pakistan in 01 and therefore White was a Test Standard allrounder? What? So if England had lost that series his abilities as a cricketer would have diminished somehow? Thats not how things work...)

I'm not getting personal, I don't do that with men online eww

Just digging deeper to the fascinating ***** logic - so that's new history then confirmed & thank you for wrecking my early teenage memories.

All them early morning's before school in the winter when I woke up & sneakily would harass by physical education teacher at lunch time for BBC TMS updates of the England's famous wins in Pakistan & Sri Lanka 2001/02 - I now know was aided by the presence of bits of pieces all-rounder Craig White - who is comparable to other bits pieces cricketers who aided other teams to win major series/tournaments.

 

[viriya]

So the argument is that it's tough to bat at 450/5 because you have to throw your bat at stuff? O_0

Pretty hilarious.

Andy Flower kept for 90%+ of his career and averaged ~54 - clearly better imo.

 

[aussie]

You're the one who's been rude lol. Id go through this thread and highlight all your lack of respect if I could be ****ed.

Nice cop out tho. Post strange theories, get aggressive when challenged, fail to justify weird theories, then blame the other posters for a lack of respect lol. Don't post if you dont want to be called out on on your posts then. If having to actually justify your claims isn't something you want to do then go write a blog or smth. Or just ignore everyone who challenges your posts and go along on your merry way.

Remember you cannot use your interpretation skills as the basis for reality - for example where in that post did I blame other posters for lack of respect? I said respect to everyone - how could you read that so totally opposite?

Show me one post where I have been rude? I wasn't even rude when I was called a racist. And I'm not still positing here am I not? - no cop out here at all. So let me try again, I'm simply saying if any debate reaches a point where gridlock is reached I'm happy to move on - like I've said numerous times already.

 

[aussie]

If anything you've got that backwards. A quality bat has a much better opportunity to make a name for themselves and play memorable innings when coming in tough situations rather than at 5/450 like Gilly often did, where you have to pretty much have a go and throw your wicket away in the pursuit of pre-declaration runs.

And the <45 first-class average is a remarkable stupid point. Many, if not most, quality international players have similar fc stats. He played a vast majority of those games early in his career when he was younger and not as good as when he was playing Test cricket.

Duh.



ugh.

neither AB or Andy Flower are passable long-term keepers. Let alone for ATG XI.

Good batsmen though.

Flower no. AB most definitely - there was certainly no signs of keeping affecting his batting in tests when he batted in a normal # 5 position before De Kock came about.

 

[Pratters]

Flower wasn't a terrific keeper while Gilchrist was one. So Gilchrist wins.

 

[Pratters]

Flower no. AB most definitely - there was certainly no signs of keeping affecting his batting in tests when he batted in a normal # 5 position before De Kock came about.

DeVilliers had back issues. He couldn't go on keeping.

 

[viriya]

Flower wasn't a terrific keeper while Gilchrist was one. So Gilchrist wins.

I disagree. I watched a lot of Flower and I think he was a decent keeper. Even if Gilchrist was a better keeper it wasn't as significant a difference imo.

 

[aussie]

White's a better bowler and I think Binny is a better batsman but he hasn't shown it yet.

Bits-and-pieces is a subjective term; I'd call them both that but I can see why some people won't. They both definitely weren't/aren't Test standard allrounders tho.

Oh he hasn't yet ok haha.

Show me a test series where Binny has a similar performances to White in PAK/SRI 2000? Oh right he hasn't yet.

Wanna address why you have different standards when evaluation Knott vs Stewart vs Sangakkara?

The better questions is what are the different standards you have interpreted I have said regarding Knott vs Stewie vs Sanga.

I mean its not like you're opinions actually mean anything to me, its just enjoyable watching you try to explain all this.

Right you don't care about somebody on the internet you would never meet in life - revolutionary revelation...

 

[OverratedSanity]

I disagree. I watched a lot of Flower and I think he was a decent keeper. Even if Gilchrist was a better keeper it wasn't as significant a difference imo.

You're either joking or you don't remember. Or you're a poor judge of keeping ability. Flower was nowehere near Gilchrist as a keeper. He wasn't decent, he was sloppy and very obviously looked makeshift.

Now, he was a better batsman than Gilchrist, that I agree. As a keeper, no. Not even close.

 

[aussie]

Lol you literally picked Knott over Gilchrist in this very thread in pages 3 and 4 on the strength of his record batting at 7. You ignored his overall average and decided that since he will be batting at 7 in the ATG XI, those are the performances that will carry the most weight in your evaluation.

Right and I said also on page 5 regarding this point:

"But even if I want to go by your suggestion Knott still wins, because Gilchrist average 30 at the back end of his career struggling against the two best attacks he faced in Ashes 05 & S Africa home/away 05/06.

While Knott average of 32 in all his positions was done while scoring notable runs against some the best pace/spin attacks in tests history - while he was among the A list elite glovesmen in cricket history - Gilly was not in this category."

You then picked Stewart at 6 because you gave equal weight to his performances all around the batting order when comparing him vs Knott, and decided he is a better batsman and thus fits the England ATG XI balance better.

He suits the balance better vs certain teams - not all teams. Knott will also play - its not a ENG ATXI where Stewart keeps in every tests! Said it before, but clearly I probably wrote that in Chinese.

But atleast Stewart has some experience and success batting at 6. You pick Sanga to bat at 5 and keep wicket even tho he basically has never done that (I checked - 5 innings with 79 runs), based on the strength of his keeping ability and runs at 3.

Nice stats picking. All of innings @ 5 was before he started to peak as a batsman in any form of the game.

 

[cnerd123]

The better questions is what are the different standards you have interpreted I have said regarding Knott vs Stewie vs Sanga.

Pro-tip #2 - when challenged on your fallacies, feign ignorance and force the accuser to constantly repeat himself in order to waste time. When they get tired of pointing out your inconsistencies, claim victory.

Ooh Aussie actually went back and found my post himself. Gg.

 

[aussie]

You're either joking or you don't remember. Or you're a poor judge of keeping ability. Flower was nowehere near Gilchrist as a keeper. He wasn't decent, he was sloppy and very obviously looked makeshift.

Now, he was a better batsman than Gilchrist, that I agree. As a keeper, no. Not even close.

Ye basically.

 

[Red]

"But even if I want to go by your suggestion Knott still wins, because Gilchrist average 30 at the back end of his career struggling against the two best attacks he faced in Ashes 05 & S Africa home/away 05/06.


.

Shock! Batsman who plays with his eye struggles a bit as he gets older!