Greatest keeper batsman - Gilchrist or Sangakkara?

[viriya]

Sangakarra kept wickets till 2008.

Till 2008 Sangakarra's average:

When keeping wickets: 44.43
When not keeping wickets: 54.79

So, you are wrong.

Maybe, but most of the matches which he didn't keep he played after 2004 when he was clearly improving as a batsman. So it's not a fair comparison.

 

[cnerd123]

Aussie getting more personal with his posts as to avoid having to face up to his fallacies, inconsistencies and weird theories (England beat Pakistan in 01 and therefore White was a Test Standard allrounder? What? So if England had lost that series his abilities as a cricketer would have diminished somehow? Thats not how things work...)

 

[Pratters]

Except Stewart was a better test batsman than Dhoni & even if you think Stewart shouldn't start in a ATXI over Knott - he is still far closer to ATXI consideration for ENG that Karthik is for India - so its a nonsense correlation you are measuring.

I remember asking this point before, since apparently my age is an issue. Please did me what year did I start watching cricket that suggested I probably missed most of his career or would suggest illogically that I would have started watching cricket with a keen eye at 3-4 years old?

Stewart averages 34 over his career when he keeps. Dhoni averages 38. Stewart was not very good as a batsman when he kept wickets. Comparison is very much valid. So which age did you start watching cricket then? I doubt you watched most of Stewart's career.

 

[viriya]

More in keeping in the original discussion, I think if you believe that Sangakkara wasn't really a true wicket-batsman because he didn't do that role for the majority of his career, then picking Gilchrist makes sense. But otherwise I think picking Sangakkara is a no-brainer. Problem is you have to decide whether his early career or his ODI/T20I record tells you more about his batting while keeping. I think it's the latter.

 

[cnerd123]

Right so are Binny & White bits and pieces all-rounders on the same level?

White's a better bowler and I think Binny is a better batsman but he hasn't shown it yet.

Bits-and-pieces is a subjective term; I'd call them both that but I can see why some people won't. They both definitely weren't/aren't Test standard allrounders tho.

Wanna address why you have different standards when evaluation Knott vs Stewart vs Sangakkara?

I mean its not like you're opinions actually mean anything to me, its just enjoyable watching you try to explain all this.

 

[Pratters]

Viriya, Sangakarra had a great start to his keeper-batsman career actually in 2001. 2003-2005 he faced a weird situation of poor batting while keeping and good batting when not keeping. Please don't ignore facts.

 

[Pratters]

More in keeping in the original discussion, I think if you believe that Sangakkara wasn't really a true wicket-batsman because he didn't do that role for the majority of his career, then picking Gilchrist makes sense. But otherwise I think picking Sangakkara is a no-brainer. Problem is you have to decide whether his early career or his ODI/T20I record tells you more about his batting while keeping. I think it's the latter.

Keeping in tests is a whole different ball game. You cannot pick players based on speculation. Else Barry Richards would be in the South African all time Test XI.

 

[viriya]

Actually I think we are missing two other options - AB and Andy Flower.

AB averages 58 (higher than his overall) when keeping. I think I would pick him over Gilchrist in an ATG team.

Andy Flower kept in most of his Tests and imo was a better Test batsman than Gilchrist.

imo: Sanga > AB > Andy Flower > Gilchrist

This is an unfair comparison though since neither Sanga or AB kept all their career. So you could say they are disqualified. So Andy Flower would be my pick over Gilchrist.

 

[viriya]

Keeping in tests is a whole different ball game. You cannot pick players based on speculation. Else Barry Richards would be in the South African all time Test XI.

4 Tests vs analzying a whole career's worth of Tests is not the same.

 

[cnerd123]

More in keeping in the original discussion, I think if you believe that Sangakkara wasn't really a true wicket-batsman because he didn't do that role for the majority of his career, then picking Gilchrist makes sense. But otherwise I think picking Sangakkara is a no-brainer. Problem is you have to decide whether his early career or his ODI/T20I record tells you more about his batting while keeping. I think it's the latter.

Eh ODIs/T20s != Tests. Completely different games. Sanga the keeper/batsman might have done better later in his career -his batting was on an upward curve anyways and was one of the factors that prompted the move to 3- but the fact that it never happened makes any discussion around it just meaningless speculation.

Gilchrist did, on the other hand, average 50+ while keeping consistently. No one tries to speculate what would have it been like had Gilly been a pure batsman, so why do we speculate what post 2008 Sanga would have been like as a keeper batsman?

 

[cnerd123]

And yea Andy Flower is a very fair alternative to Gilly, don't mind that. I'd still pick Gilly tho.

 

[viriya]

Eh ODIs/T20s != Tests. Completely different games. Sanga the keeper/batsman might have done better later in his career -his batting was on an upward curve anyways and was one of the factors that prompted the move to 3- but the fact that it never happened makes any discussion around it just meaningless speculation.

Gilchrist did, on the other hand, average 50+ while keeping consistently. No one tries to speculate what would have it been like had Gilly been a pure batsman, so why do we speculate what post 2008 Sanga would have been like as a keeper batsman?

Because that was the whole point of this thread...

 

[aussie]

Stewart averages 34 over his career when he keeps. Dhoni averages 38. Stewart was not very good as a batsman when he kept wickets. Comparison is very much valid. So which age did you start watching cricket then? I doubt you watched most of Stewart's career.

Stewart faced better bowling especially the quality pace even while keeping and did better - I don't recall Dhoni scoring hundreds comparable to Stewart 164 vs Donald and co 98 & his 105 vs Ambrose/Walsh on a testing pitch/difficult batting circumstances.

6. 1995 home series vs West Indies. So that would mean I saw 8 years of Stewart live, missed 6 and a half which means I saw most of his tests.

 

[cnerd123]

Its a stupid thread then

 

[Pratters]

Considering the question is the greatest keeper-batsman, batting is also an important aspect.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Gilchrist stands head and shoulders above the others, really.

 

[cnerd123]

Oh yay a Dhoni vs Stewart debate. Don't think I've ever seen this before.

 

[viriya]

I know this is an unpopular opinion but I think Gilchrist is overrated as a Test batsman. This has been gone over multiple times before but even though he has a decent number of backs-to-the-wall innings, he benefited enormously from coming into bat after the GOAT Aus batting line-up of the 2000s had set it up for him to downhill ski. His FC record where he averages <45 supports my point.

All these points makes me think Flower > Gilchrist is a no-brainer.

 

[Pratters]

4 Tests vs analzying a whole career's worth of Tests is not the same.

4 tests compared to zero tests keeping post 2008. You are saying he would have kept well after 2008 and made runs too. But you don't know this as it never happened in tests.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Will never agree with Andy Flower as a keeper pick for an ATG XI. People who do pick him either didn't watch him keep at all or don't consider keeping skills that important.

 

[viriya]

4 tests compared to zero tests keeping post 2008. You are saying he would have kept well after 2008 and made runs too. But you don't know this as it never happened in tests.

Speculation based on a whole ODI + T20I career and pre-2008 batting that was decent. And it is universally acknowledged that Sanga kept improving as a batsman throughout his career.