Graham Gooch vs Vernon Philander

[Coronis]

A normal team will likely play more often in helpful conditions suiting them at home. Gooch was great was WI, but not great against a lot of other oppositions.

Home doesn’t necessarily mean helpful. And most teams these days have pretty balanced H/A schedules.

Last 5 years for example (excluded WTC finals)

Eng 31-33
Ind 24-20*
Aus 24-16*
NZ 20-19*
Pak 18-20
SL 17-19
WI 15-21
Ban 17-16
SA 15-18

 

[capt_Luffy]

Good player of spin if not elite. Some of his scope in Asia comes from a couple of ODI classics.

Got a couple of rough calls in Pakistan (1987) and suffered severe food poisoning on the shambolic 90s India tour though he could have done better in Pakistan and he isn't the type to make excuses.

Let's just say at the end of the day, his away record isn't enough better than Philander's (who himself was near ATG in England and great in NZ) to overlook the home advantage. And that's without accounting for the batting.

 

[Coronis]

Let's just say at the end of the day, his away record isn't enough better than Philander's (who himself was near ATG in England and great in NZ) to overlook the home advantage. And that's without accounting for the batting.

I could be confusing him for someone else but didn’t Big Vern sit out on tough places to tour or something? Can’t recall tbh.

 

[BazBall21]

I could be confusing him for someone else but didn’t Big Vern sit out on tough places to tour or something? Can’t recall tbh.

He is regularly accused of dodging tough overs abroad yeah. He could have at least served a purpose as a holding stock bowler on flatter tracks but he didn't have the fitness for it.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I could be confusing him for someone else but didn’t Big Vern sit out on tough places to tour or something? Can’t recall tbh.

To an extent. There are places (like SC) which needed him to be a holding bowler, but he lacked the stamina and one of the reasons his record in general and away record in particular is inflated.

 

[BazBall21]

Let's just say at the end of the day, his away record isn't enough better than Philander's (who himself was near ATG in England and great in NZ) to overlook the home advantage. And that's without accounting for the batting.

I think Gooch is a higher quality cricketer and that won't change.

Philander's matchwinning threshold in seaming conditions tightens the gap, but their respective effectiveness at home isn't a straightforward comparison when it comes to conveying quality as being an England opener in a tough batting era is a fair bit more difficult than being a seam bowler in South Africa.

 

[BazBall21]

Looking at Philander's stats country by country, it seems he was almost a part timer if the ball wasn't nipping around. Very innocuous in Asia and his one big performance in Australia came on a Hobart greentop.

Gooch would have been a top player wherever. Philander wouldn't even have had a career in Asia or Australia.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think Gooch is a higher quality cricketer and that won't change.

Philander's threshold in seaming conditions tightens the gap, but their respective effectiveness at home isn't a straightforward comparison when it comes to converging quality as being an England opener in a tough batting era is a fair bit difficult than being a seam bowler in South Africa.

I would respectfully disagree. Gooch's record I don't find particularly flattering even accounting for the era. I don't think it's right to call Gooch higher quality for a couple years at the backend of his career vs WI, sure ATG stuff, but not necessarily enough to overshadow everything else. Philander was just a bigger match winner for me, and direct comparison or not at home, I do think Philander was better in SA than Gooch in England.

 

[BazBall21]

I would respectfully disagree. Gooch's record I don't find particularly flattering even accounting for the era. I don't think it's right to call Gooch higher quality for a couple years at the backend of his career vs WI, sure ATG stuff, but not necessarily enough to overshadow everything else. Philander was just a bigger match winner for me, and direct comparison or not at home, I do think Philander was better in SA than Gooch in England.

I didn't call Gooch a higher quality cricketer with an exclusive two year period in mind.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I didn't call Gooch a higher quality cricketer with an exclusive two year period in mind.

And I don't think he was except for those few years.

 

[BazBall21]

And I don't think he was except for those few years.

Fair enough. Disagree overall.

 

[shortpitched713]

Ian Botham and Joe Root

James Anderson.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Botham, Anderson, Root are greats but England haven’t produced a single player that would make my combined Aus-England xi since 1970. Hopefully one day England can produce a player that can break into this team.

Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

 

[capt_Luffy]

Botham, Anderson, Root are greats but England haven’t produced a single player that would make my combined Aus-England xi since 1970

Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

Drop Ponting for Cook.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Drop Ponting for Cook.

Ponting was one or two tiers above Cook as a batsman. And Ponting had a great record when he came in after an early wicket.

Fair enough if you prefer Cook though.

 

[ma1978]

Cook is about as good as Langer and may be worse than Khawaja

ponting Over chappell but the point stands.

 

[BazBall21]

I think Langer was slightly better than Cook. Only way an England player gets in is if one decides a no3 shouldn't open in a dream XI. I would get Gooch in if that's the case.

 

[shortpitched713]

Botham, Anderson, Root are greats but England haven’t produced a single player that would make my combined Aus-England xi since 1970. Hopefully one day England can produce a player that can break into this team.

Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

Drop Border for Root, then team is better, + has English player.

 

[sayon basak]

Botham, Anderson, Root are greats but England haven’t produced a single player that would make my combined Aus-England xi since 1970. Hopefully one day England can produce a player that can break into this team.

Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

Botham's getting underrated.
Drop Cummins and pick Botham

And really? Ponting as an opener?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Botham's getting underrated

Drop Cummins and pick Botham.

If Botham gets in, I think it would have to be for Border/Waugh.

Botham is definitely the closest English player to getting in though although he was mediocre against the best team of his era.