Gilchrist v Dhoni

[ankitj]

Murali was instrumental in India getting knocked out in 2007 world cup too. Was MoM in that game.

 

[ankitj]

Murali played 5 WCs and averaged under 20 in 3 of them. In the '07 one he averaged 15 ffs.

But of course that doesn't really count because he failed against the greatest ODI team ever in the Finals, where he started his spell bowling to a rampaging Gilchrist and still hit his pads 3 times in the over before his fellow bowlers were taken to the cleaners.

Imagine using a sample size of literally one match to have a "big black mark" against someones 500+ wicket career.

I want to start a thread to discuss this whole world cup final obsession in rating players. But it will probably be a **** show with old arguments repeated.

Anyway, I have always held it is more down to chance than some mythical ability to play well in world cup finals. Someone who has a weakness against bounce doesn't suddenly become a good player of bounce in wc finals due to this mythical ability. And pressure is equal on both sides so that factor cancels out (it's not like one team plays wc final and other a JAMODI).

 

[TheJediBrah]

Heck, Hogg was an adequate replacement for Warne. I do think he's underrated but you'd deservedly get laughed out of the room if you implied he's better than Saqlain or Murali.

Yeah I've been saying this for years. Warne was great but I would literally pick Hogg ahead of him in any "ATG"-ish side. Better bat, better fielder and possibly even a better white-ball bowler.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I say Warne was more likely to win big matches than either, based mostly on the big matches that he won. Not doing quite as well in the occasional low key tri series is just not as high on the radar.

No, he's just more likely to win big matches you choose to not conveniently ignore.

I swear, Australian posters lose around 20% of their brain cells when talking about their players. A truly Burgey-esque commitment to being wrong.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I swear, Australian posters lose around 20% of their brain cells when talking about their players. A truly Burgey-esque commitment to being wrong.

Why is there always some India v Australia **** fight here lately

 

[h_hurricane]

In the 1996 semifinal, Warne did not dismiss any of the opposition's best batsmen (Lara, Richardson or Chanderpaul). Until Waugh dismissed Lara with that dream delivery and Chanders losing his head against Mcgrath, WI were winning in a canter.

 

[harsh.ag]

Imagine the big black mark against Murali if he had missed a world cup because of illegal drug use.

 

[h_hurricane]

Why is there always some India v Australia **** fight here lately

You wanted it this way right. Borrowing from your comments from the Dhoni thread and cricketsavant's posts there .

 

[TheJediBrah]

You wanted it this way right. Borrowing from your comments from the Dhoni thread and cricketsavant's posts there .

not sure what you mean tbh

it's fun now and again but it's just never ending lately. You can make fun of someone's dumb posting without saying "this nationality's fans are always x"

 

[vcs]

Murali literally had one bad WC knockout game (in which as Daemon pointed out, he was coming in against a rampaging Gilchrist) in his career that spanned 5 World Cups (1 win, 3 finals) but that is apparently enough to prove that he couldn't win his team big matches.

 

[h_hurricane]

not sure what you mean tbh

it's fun now and again but it's just never ending lately. You can make fun of someone's dumb posting without saying "this nationality's fans are always x"

I was referring to the below. By the way, my observation is that the instances of the fans of the 2 countries having a go at each other have reduced over the last year or so.

seriously can we just ignore this guy? sure it's great that everyone has a common enemy but he's clearly just manufacturing pure garbage and everyone is replying to it with the same corrections multiple times. It's boring. Honestly I prefer it when we're at each other's throats.

 

[ataraxia]

...isn't this meant to be Gilly vs Dhoni rather than Warne vs Murali?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I was referring to the below. By the way, my observation is that the instances of the fans of the 2 countries having a go at each other have reduced over the last year or so.

Guess I don't know what I want

 

[Daemon]

I want to start a thread to discuss this whole world cup final obsession in rating players. But it will probably be a **** show with old arguments repeated.

Anyway, I have always held it is more down to chance than some mythical ability to play well in world cup finals. Someone who has a weakness against bounce doesn't suddenly become a good player of bounce in wc finals due to this mythical ability. And pressure is equal on both sides so that factor cancels out (it's not like one team plays wc final and other a JAMODI).

While I agree the biggest factor is probably luck if you’re talking about a couple of games here and there, I disagree with it being a mythical ability.

There’s definitely clutch players out there as well as the opposite. For example I would honestly take Stokes over Kohli in certain situations because the man just pulls things out of his ass every now and again that shouldn’t be possible.

Conversely I would back a few spinners over Ashwin to bowl me to victory on a day 5 overseas wicket because the latter just loses the plot too often when the team depends solely on him.

 

[vcs]

I was referring to the below. By the way, my observation is that the instances of the fans of the 2 countries having a go at each other have reduced over the last year or so.

It will start back in right earnest when India tour over there this winter. Can't wait TBH

 

[ankitj]

While I agree the biggest factor is probably luck if you’re talking about a couple of games here and there, I disagree with it being a mythical ability.

There’s definitely clutch players out there as well as the opposite. For example I would honestly take Stokes over Kohli in certain situations because the man just pulls things out of his ass every now and again that shouldn’t be possible.

Conversely I would back a few spinners over Ashwin to bowl me to victory on a day 5 overseas wicket because the latter just loses the plot too often when the team depends solely on him.

I don't disagree that clutch players is a thing. I just disagree that all performances in wc finals are down to clutchness.

Pressure is relevant when it applies unevenly on different players. When Stokes in Headingly scored that hundred he was under much more pressure than Australia given the number of runs and wickets left. So it is a good example of Stokes' ability to play a clutch knock and there is reasonable basis to say he is more clutch than Kohli. On the other hand if someone awards extra points for clutchness to all performances in Ashesh because pressure then I call that BS (all 22 players in a game are playing Ashes).

 

[vcs]

There is a lot of luck and fine margins in these kinds of "clutch" assessments TBH and I am generally skeptical about them, unless there are obvious instances of a player wilting under the pressure and failing to execute basics (like Zaheer Khan in the World Cup final or Harmison in Ashes 2006). I don't think Kohli can be accused of not bringing his best under pressure.

 

[ankitj]

There is a lot of luck and fine margins in these kinds of "clutch" assessments TBH and I am generally skeptical about them, unless there are obvious instances of a player wilting under the pressure and failing to execute basics (like Zaheer Khan in the World Cup final or Harmison in Ashes 2006). I don't think Kohli can be accused of not bringing his best under pressure.

That's fair too. Stokes was not miles away from not winning that game. And Kohli has played some superb knocks coming from behind. One that stands out is the world t20 game knocking out Australia in 2016. There have been plenty others too.

 

[vcs]

Tendulkar failing to get India home vs. Pakistan in '99 and Lara successfully doing it against Australia is another example. Think Lara was dropped with a few runs to go. It's a bit unfair (but also understandable) that the way two great innings are judged hinges on this one small piece of fortune.

 

[Burgey]

I was referring to the below. By the way, my observation is that the instances of the fans of the 2 countries having a go at each other have reduced over the last year or so.

Yeah but sunilz has ****ed off which has only been a good thing.

It'll ramp up again this summer assuming the tour goes ahead as planned.